S&P Respect

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by JesusC, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. These ideas open up the possibilities of different worlds with different societies. I agree with both takes- on one hand chaos is our nature and can make life more interesting; on the other hand I believe it is a phase of development and will one day change into something else.

    If eternity exists, one day we will be on a planet of peace, just as we wound up on this planet of half peace/half chaos. It's just all a cycle to me and all possibilities are open at all times. Societies of choas, peace, and mixtures of the two exist forever if eternity exists.

    I believe who you are ultimately decides where you end up. So if you believe in a peaceful society that's where you will go if that's who you are. This might just be a sorting ground or we may be guides for others who knows? Sometimes I feel like I got sorted wrong, but then I wonder if it's because I was sick of being sorted right? :devious:
     


  2. Upon further reflection I could have used different language in my first post and avoided even addressing this but I will. Personally, I'm not here to change lives or influence others, that's not my intent whatsoever. Most days I wonder why I even post in the S&P forum because I'm not looking for anything, I'm content with my life, and I need no one's guidance or approval.

    Sharing your ideas over the Internet doesn't make them less valid by any stretch of the imagination--again, sorry about the wording. What I was trying to get at is that our daily lives are complex and layered, and that I personally couldn't imagine coming to GrassCity to have a conversion logical or otherwise. My spiritual journey is about more than who created the universe it also entails--for me--a personal quest for meaning, not a meaning that I'll then legislate to others but a meaning that gives me a clearer sense of who I am.

    I agree with your with your last point completely. No one post or thread has given me pause but hearing all of the varying points of view has allowed my own experience to deepen and become more rich. To be a human being is to a participant in a most indescribable journey and that's pretty fucking cool. It would be much nicer if we could all agree more, but that hopeful wish may not be in sync with reality, nor should it perhaps.

    In some ways I think posters in this forum should be given a greater freedom to express their ideas without punitive measures being threatened or taken. Passion is in the center of the human heart, is it any wonder that some of our views might be a little over the top?

    Much love.
     
  3. I give everyone an equal amount of respect when I meet them.
    Its up to you based on what you say and how you act to maintain that level of respect.

    simple as that.

    (jesusc you stole my thread idea you bastard!)
     
  4. Religion cannot give the whys, because it has no evidence to suggest their whys are in anyway, shape or form, correct. Religion does encourage non-thinking, it encourages blind faith and believing without any evidence whatsoever. What does it give us, a sense of peace that may be false? Is this the only way we can handle the idea of death, to dream up magical humans who will allow us to live in their paradise afterwards? Is it the best explanation we can come up with for the Universe? I do not believe so, because it brings you to a stand still. "God did it". God makes it thunder, thankfully not everyone was happy with that answer, thankfully we are no longer stuck in the bronze age, though at times, it feels like it. :)

    What meaning is there in a lie?

    Yes, but I would not blame that on logical thought, I would instead blame it on a lack of its usage. Many people run around thinking they are being logical when they are being anything but. Yes, we are human, and yes we will make mistakes. Better to do so trying to make use of logic then to throw it out the window all together. Society is not some far off country that needs to be feared, society is an illogical mess, however. I am forced to suffer because of that. ;)

    Yes, it needs to be studied like one would study an mythology or work of fiction, not adopted and made a part or your belief system if it is to the point where you will even ignore evidence because you feel it contradicts your closely held superstition. (using a universal "you" there)

    Sure, humans can do very stupid things with or without religion. Though, you cannot deny that many people believe that humans have something called a soul which makes us special, and animals do not, that we are something better than everything else on this planet because of our divine right to rule. I do not see many atheists/agnostics/humanists/Buddhists preaching this, I do see people from many different religions doing so, however.

    lol, the use of the tables certainly did make this difficult to edit. :p No worries, though. I like to see it!

    What does education have to do with being logical, it is quite possible for someone to have a masters degree and be very foolish. Education can fail us, because we do not teach kids how to be logical or reasonable, it does not seem important in our education system. Also, using Hitler, a very religious person I might add, as an example of a logical person, is kinda out there. His death camps were anything but logical.

    Evolution has no end! It is an ongoing process. :)

    It is not that big an if, especially if we actually started teaching our children how to use the mind they have. That might be a good place to start. :)

    We certainly act like it. We have government treating us as such and the majority sits there and seems to enjoy it. Hell, a good number of us believe in fairy tales. How are we not children? There are so many issues in this world that could be quite easily addressed, yet they seem to be ignored.

    I see many, many people who act the way I described. We cling to superstition and myth, like a child clings to a security blanket. It is quite... Shocking really.
     
  5. so.....








    who else here has an "enemies list" ala Richard Nixon? :D
     
  6. I could tell you, but then I would have to put you on a certain list I cannot name. :)
     
  7. consider my respect as standard. if its not there, dont worry, i'll be sure to notify you of the loss of respect. if it seems i'm acting like i dont respect ya, fret not, unless i directly tell ya otherwise, i still respect ya... especially when it may seem like i'm acting like i dont.


    ... that make sense?
     
  8. <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    Religion cannot give the whys, because it has no evidence to suggest their whys are in anyway, shape or form, correct. Religion does encourage non-thinking, it encourages blind faith and believing without any evidence whatsoever. What does it give us, a sense of peace that may be false? Is this the only way we can handle the idea of death, to dream up magical humans who will allow us to live in their paradise afterwards? Is it the best explanation we can come up with for the Universe? I do not believe so, because it brings you to a stand still. "God did it". God makes it thunder, thankfully not everyone was happy with that answer, thankfully we are no longer stuck in the bronze age, though at times, it feels like it. :)
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    [BTW, nothing I write is meant to persuade you of anything. :D]

    Again, ahem, you misunderstand me because the "whys" are not necessarily "logical." The whys are what value we attach to life. Maybe in the grand scheme of things that doesn't mean anything, but right here, right now, it does. You throw around the word "religion" like it's easily explainable and therefore easily dismissed, but it isn't. Maybe scientists and philosophers will develop the means to prove why belief in God is idiotic, but till then and after...

    What am I supposed to do with that and a whole host of other issues I struggle with on a daily basis? Personally, I have to find a way to live that I'm happy with, maybe certain aspects will intersect with what you've chosen for your life and we'll agree on some issues, or maybe not but regardless we'll all have to live the way we see fit, period.

    Religion as a means to cope with death? Naw, religion deals way more with how we should live than it does anything about trying to comfort us about what's going to happen when we die.

    Life never stands still bro, it moves as it moves and not always on our timetable. What you consider standing in the way of progress may in actuality be moving on a timetable no one can guess on--but still moving. Unfortunately the human existence doesn't come with a handbook about these kinds of things. It takes millennia sometimes for the earth to move a few inches or for climates to change, seems to me everything will happen when it happens, and any effort to blame certain segments religious or otherwise is a big fucking waste of time.

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    What meaning is there in a lie?
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    Lets put to the side the fact that I completely disagree with you on this point, I could just be imagining all this, but a "lie" implies something entirely different than our natures going about their daily business of fulfilling themselves. Just for a second wonder, how much do people lie to each other on a daily basis? When you calculate it man, it gets so one would think we lie to each other all the time.

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    Yes, but I would not blame that on logical thought, I would instead blame it on a lack of its usage. Many people run around thinking they are being logical when they are being anything but. Yes, we are human, and yes we will make mistakes. Better to do so trying to make use of logic then to throw it out the window all together. Society is not some far off country that needs to be feared, society is an illogical mess, however. I am forced to suffer because of that. ;)
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    No, I don't blame logical thought either; I blame human beings which can either be logical as a series of numbers or barbaric as Genghis Khan at the drop of a fucking hat. In the universe there is no safety, system of thought that doesn't brutalize us all in some way. It's better that we just live yo. Maybe we'll make use of logic or maybe we'll be ruled by emotion, but just look at it, we'll be living.

    Society isn't an illogical mess, it's just all of us, we aren't machines.

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    Yes, it needs to be studied like one would study an mythology or work of fiction, not adopted and made a part or your belief system if it is to the point where you will even ignore evidence because you feel it contradicts your closely held superstition. (using a universal "you" there)
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    All of our lives are infinitely more profound than mere mythology and our beliefs more sacred than a text book. I'm not saying religion is "the answer" just an answer for some, and as long as they're respectful, let them believe what they will. People have that right whether you want to accept that is on you, but I don't see human nature changing anytime soon so buckle up. I fully accept contradiction in life, the bible, and in my ham and eggs when I order it. Only people that are tremendously insecure look for perfection.

    See, faith and or logic are "choices" bro. Logic is on the table but so is the reverse, and in my way of thinking there is no real difference between the two because the human race will endure as long as it endures. People choose what they wish, period, that's the crux of our lives so to speak.

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    Sure, humans can do very stupid things with or without religion. Though, you cannot deny that many people believe that humans have something called a soul which makes us special, and animals do not, that we are something better than everything else on this planet because of our divine right to rule. I do not see many atheists/agnostics/humanists/Buddhists preaching this, I do see people from many different religions doing so, however.
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    I guess what I would argue is, what does it matter that we believe these things if true benevolence is at its core? Who cares if people claim to have a soul? It isn't bothering me and it won't interfere with anything when I walk down the street later today and buy some 211. Human arrogance is a deeper problem than a question of a soul, because most people today live as if the future is never going to happen. I think people generally show a genuine lack of respect for the planet which has nothing whatsoever to do with religion at all. [Also, Buddhism is a religion.]

    When I look out at the world I see "people" struggling for meaning, not Buddhists, Hindu's, Christians, or Atheists, just people trying to find their way in life.



    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    What does education have to do with being logical, it is quite possible for someone to have a masters degree and be very foolish. Education can fail us, because we do not teach kids how to be logical or reasonable, it does not seem important in our education system. Also, using Hitler, a very religious person I might add, as an example of a logical person, is kinda out there. His death camps were anything but logical.
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    Education has a lot to do with being logical, it is where kids get trained for eighteen years (plus another four or more for college) after all. What does being foolish have to do with logic? Human beings are foolish and logical, and sometimes all at the same time. Life is filled with contridiction and should be. Some of our life experiences can be neatly categorized while others can't.

    Oh yeah, the Hitler thing, isn't really that out there because he attracted a broad range of people that supported his ideologies and some of those people worked in fields where logic is readily applied. The death camps were built to efficiently kill scores of people, efficiency is a German trademark, trust me I know, I was in a German.


    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    Evolution has no end! It is an ongoing process. :)
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    Uh I know, I was trying to point to the fact that the future is unknown as is our destiny, I was being a little perverse.

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    It is not that big an if, especially if we actually started teaching our children how to use the mind they have. That might be a good place to start. :)
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    Yeah, sure and so would teaching them to not be shallow, hateful, or fearful. Maybe "logic" doesn't have a name, maybe it's ultimately the way we live but we call it common sense. Any complete anarchy where you live? Do people generally obey the laws and behave in a civilized way or do they burn their homes and rape each other in the streets?

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Liquidtruth [​IMG]

    We certainly act like it. We have government treating us as such and the majority sits there and seems to enjoy it. Hell, a good number of us believe in fairy tales. How are we not children? There are so many issues in this world that could be quite easily addressed, yet they seem to be ignored.
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    Have you ever noticed that we humans usually opt for the hard road over the easy?

    I have yet to see a situation where our collective species did something easily and with little effort.

    Bottom line: We see these issues differently and hopefully we can discuss them civilly when the occasion arises. Like I've said I'm in need of no enlightenment, I'm an educated person that's chosen a way of life that's works well for me and no one is going to make me feel ashamed or uncertain, that's just me. [Not saying that you're trying to do that just a general statement.] Personally, I'm glad you found a way of life that works for you, now let everyone else do what you did in peace.

    Stay green.
     
  9. Give yourself 30 years without a some sort of morality or religion in your country or society and you will see the obvious social outcomes, ... religion keeps a nation to steer, think of the most ancient living social cultures in the world and you will find that religion- of some type of sort. has steered them to thrive in their lives, even though they just had a few huts and the social group of their clan, - the thing about corrupt immorally in religion is that it can have negative social repercussions and outcomes, look at medieval christianity, modern Islam, look at ancient greece - ( celebrated violence and open homosexuality- lack of moral theology and religious role models lead to society and moral behavior corruption- just like their God[Zeus] "for we are your offpsring" Oepidipas. Of all religions spiritually exceptable, i would opt for bhudism and christianity. But i would rather opt for a universal energy - that of wisdom and universal awareness and knowledge.

    Philosophy (logic, reason, rationality) is vital to a society, especially at the point in society in our human evolution, -religion is the biggest branch off Philosphy, social philosophy, alone is just a boring talk on humanity, religion however, is exiting, entertaining, it plays vitally because it adds hope and faith and psychological affirmation to many people in the human race, this hope and proactive meaning that religion brings goes hand in hand with our daily lives, and gaps that oommff that is needed to many so that may live, provided the religion is morally acceptable, occupying and quenching and thier entire life's devotion in fulfilling meaning...

    Philosophy and Spiritually are the most meaningful and most important facets of our evolution, we have come to this point because it in our pysche and human genome, we want to patch meaning to every event, and we find it Humanatie's 5 of Philosophicies most important branches, History, Theology, Sciences, sociology, technology. all of these branches thread other meaningful branches of their own, so i believe if a person can individually gain as much meanining as he can through these occupations - then he would not be far in finding ultimate meaning and sense to his life. This is just my observational thesis... i dont really know what the fuck is universally good for the world man.
     

  10. Morality and religion are two different things and most certainly do not move hand in hand. I could be wrong, but it seems as though you speak of morality and religion as if they are one in the same.

    Obviously the success of a society depends on the morals of those within that society. However, society shouldnt depend on religious stories from which to obtain these certain morals. I would rather see a moral society that reflects the opinions and desires of the people, not the "gods".


    ......or you can save your self the time and look at modern christianity.
     
  11. Agree with the OP. And if you are to keep up the ongoing debate, may the side of reason win :hello:
     

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