Rock Dust

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by jerry111165, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. [quote name='"jerry111165"']Fun stuff! Thanks guys and gals, blades and bladies!

    Sean, RSP? Kudos on the basalt! I want some too. I understand its excellent as rock dust.

    Sean, how are you grinding the shells? I'm working on my new heavy duty mortar and pestle, but then I need to come up with a good 200 micron screen - it is my distinct understanding that the dust needs to be the consistency of flour - super duper fine.

    Beautiful plants! Fun stuff isn't it!?

    J[/quote]

    Lol sorry SRP (soft rock phosphate) i swear im dyslexic sometimes lol.

    My "breakdown" precess of those shells is extremely primitive lol. I throw it in a bucket and smash the shyt out of it with a bat lol. The thought that it needs to be super fine is accurate but not completely necessary. Now let me state this properly before i get my face chewed off. Thats not to say that you can go ahead and do a half assed job at smashing it up and expect to get that best results right out of the bat. But for the best possible results for the soil, microbes and plant itself yes. Finer is easily better.

    My take on rock dusts, i dont use them primarily for actual elemental nutrient (although that is a primary use for it). For elemental nutrients we have other things that cover that with more benefit. I use it mainly as fungal anchors, and enzymatic catalysts, and then after long slow breakdown finally elemental nutrients. So with that thought process, i dont feel that it is absolutely imperative that it is extremely fine especially knowing that i'll be using and reusing my soil over and over. It'll break down more and more fine with time lol.
     
  2. #22 poppybgood, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2012

    If they gone come and getcha, they gone come and getcha;) They got lots bigger fish to fry, and besides jail is not that bad.. if you can hang. The dope usually sucks and alcohol is hard to get, but it does give you a chance to reflect on life:)

    Edit: My indoor girls are petite as well ITG. I've got the perfect place, but even if I did have the big lights I couldn't afford the bill. When I did have a 2K grow, the winter bill with no heat in my block outbuilding alone was running 300 bucks a month. Too much for my shoestring budget these days. Thanks Bushybama.
     
  3. When you say "granite meal" you do mean granite screenings, correct (assuming the screenings are very fine-- powder fine)?
     
  4. Hey poppy. I know you're right. But if I was in jail, who would look after my garden :p? I'm sure I could hang, but I really don't want to. Those days are behind me lol. I hear ya on the budget thing. Plus the genius who wired my house wired 2 bedrooms and the living room all on the same 15A circuit. But it's ok, my girls are petite like their mama. Sean and jerry's plants are almost my size lol, the grow room would literally be like a jungle for me. Which now that I think about it would be pretty cool. :smoke:
     
  5. Hey Seandawg, I noticed the pvc pipes in your buckets. It kinda reminded me of Soma's raised bed table deals he was making back in the mid 90's. Do you do that for irrigation, extra oxygenation, etc.?
     
  6. Those are my "water only, no-til, SIP planter".
    It's basically a SIP bucket with a hydroponic bucket basket as the cover. so what happens is that when my plant finishes i pull it out of the basket, drop in a new plant and top / side dress with compost / EWC. Good to go! Every 3rd grow or so (basically when i get time and dont feel too lazy lol) i pull it out and recycle / re-amend it.

    http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-...errys-organic-obsession-344.html#post15756624

    that is a link to a post i made on jerry's thread a while ago during a transplant.
     
  7. #27 xDisciplex, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2012
    J your plants look amazing,and in perfect health.

    Glad I'm goin organic finally.Hope to see these results in the future thx to you,and a lot of peoples shared knowledge around here.

    Also been wanting to ask does your Pineapple express ever show any N def?Mine,does like crazy when I flip a couple weeks in.I've read others sayn the same thing.That PE is very N hungry.If yours doesnt that would be impressive IMO.

    I know SD has some PE goin as well.Be interested in your expirience to.
     
  8. [quote name='"xDisciplex"']J your plants look amazing,and in perfect health.

    Glad I'm goin organic finally.Hope to see these results in the future thx to you,and a lot of peoples shared knowledge around here.

    Also been wanting to ask does your Pineapple express ever show any N def?Mine,does like crazy when I flip a couple weeks in.I've read others sayn the same thing.PE is N hungry.If yours doesnt that would be impressive.[/quote]

    Actually no, I've never had any issues with this plant at all ever. But, not all from seed are exactly alike. I've only had two plants that have really given me grief. Super Lemon Haze and Tangerine Dream. But so far my only problem with that plant is based on me learning the strain. In that box, in the sip planter. It has now grown above the light. Im going to have to super crop one of the tops to ensure it gets light. A real no no in my opinion, but i feel like i have no choice :(.
     
  9. LS - correct.

    Sean, this is from the Remineralize the Earth website in the "Rock Dust Primer" quoted directly.

    The Particle Conversion Chart shows various categories of "soil separates" (ground particles) listed with their diameters in microns (thousandths of a mm.) and their corresponding screen mesh sizes. "Mesh" simply refers to a screen with a given number of holes per inch.
    The more finely ground the rock, the more readily microorganisms will have access to the minerals. John Hamaker uses the term "gravel dust" to mean a dust "90% of which will pass through a 200-mesh screen."

    For me, rock particles that do not fall into this category arent for me. While I understand that you and I will be re-using our soil for years to come, I guarantee that It will take years, and probably more before larger sized particles are broken down to these recommended sizes. I want the benefits now - not in several or more years.

    Soft Rock Phophate is also a controversial subject. Oregon Tilth is trying to get certain brands delisted, different products come out of different mines, the Calphos brand from the mine in Florida has been shown to contain high levels of uranium and cadmium. I am told that the "Tenessee Brown" product is a good one. Not trying to be a Negative Nelly here - theres just, it seems, alot of differences between different SRP products.

    What you said here - I use it mainly as fungal anchors, and enzymatic catalysts, and then after long slow breakdown finally elemental nutrients. - EXACTLY.

    j
     
  10. Lets continue down the rabbit hole -

    Organic gardening is ALL about mineralization. I dont mean anything to do with "rocks & minerals", per se, Im referring to "the transformation of organic molecules to inorganic forms, typically mediated by biological activity'.

    This is Nutrient Cycling - the breaking down of organic matter; our compost, our peat, our amendments - all of it, through enzymes which are secreted/excreted by bacteria & fungus. These enzymes are used outside of the bacteria - its called "extra-cellular", as it is outside of the cell walls of the bacteria. Larger animals, like earthworms, use enzymes INSIDE thier bodies to break down organic matter.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is an excellent explanation from the University of Western Australia - Soil Health - Organic Matter Breakdown

    It is definetly worth reading. These are the first two paragraphs -

    Organic Matter Breakdown: Releasing Nutrients for Uptake
    How is organic matter broken down in the soil?


    Organic matter break down is a biological process because it is the soil organisms (microorganisms, earthworms, microarthropods, ants, beetles etc) that perform the chemical and physical transformations. Break down of organic matter involves physical fragmentation, chemical alteration of organic matter and finally release of mineral nutrients. (Mineralization!) Different organisms are involved with the different stages of the decomposition.

    Leaf and root systems are naturally colonised by microorganisms. Break down starts almost immediately after the organism, or part of it, dies. These colonies of microorganisms use enzymes to oxidise the organic matter to obtain energy and carbon (C). Earthworms and other larger soil animals, such as mites, collembola (springtails), and ants assist in the decomposition of organic matter by incorporating it into the sub-surface soil, where conditions are usually more favourable for decomposition than on the soil surface. The soil animals fragment the organic material, which increases its surface area and allows it to be further colonised and decomposed by microorganisms.



    Can plants immediately take up nutrients released from decomposition?

    Mineralisation is the biological process in which organic compounds are chemically converted to other simpler organic compounds or inorganic forms, such as ammonium or phosphate, by soil microorganisms. When microorganisms mineralise a protein molecule, for example, the molecule may undergo several changes to simpler organic molecules before the carbon is converted to carbon dioxide and the nitrogen, phosphorus and sulphur become readily available to plants as ammonium (NH4+), phosphate (PO43-) and sulphate (SO42-).

    Bacteria and fungi are responsible for most of the mineralisation of organic matter in soil by releasing enzymes that oxidise organic compounds. This process releases energy and carbon, some of which is used by the microbes for constructing cellular components such as cell walls and membranes.



    The rest can be read on the website cited above. This is a good explanantion of how organic matter is broken down to become available for use by plants - through enzymes. Rock dust inadvertantly helps create large amounts of enzymes by creating anchors for soil bacteria.


    Isnt this SO cool! :) Its all good knowing how to make a soil mix that works, its another thing entirely knowing the HOW's and WHY's of how it works! Plants cannot use any of our soil mix until it is broken down into its elemental form through mineralization. Once items get broken down by enzymes into its most simple, basic form, then these items can be used as plant food. By having alot of organic goodness broken down and ready to use as plant food, our plants are able to get whatever they want, whenever they (or our soil microbes) need it, resulting in extremely healthy, lush plant growth.

    Dig it?

    More to come.

    j
     
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  11. ^We so needed this. Thanks for taking us further into the rabbit hole with you jerry, all this great information is much appreciated.
     
  12. The effectiveness of this thread can be summed up like so: yesterday after my son's soccer game, I picked up a 10# bucket of rock dust. Good shit making this thread.
     

  13. "I" need it. I'm reading, discussing, learning, and when I write things down its easier for me to comprehend *lol*

    It's a good thing, I think, and thanks for the support on this. It makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

    When I first started getting into organics a few years ago, learning from Chunk, Lumper and some others, I remember a specific time when some common sense things (of course associated with education) started to "click" for me, and the bells & whistles started going off.

    It's happening again, and I'm glad I have people of like mind to share this with and discuss.

    Thank you.

    J
     
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  14. Jerry, so I'm assuming that most any rock dust, i.e, anything very fine that is mineral would serve as an anchor, correct? I can get granite dust from the saw cut before the slabs are sealed, but I've got my heart set on the GRD. I intend to use it in all my container gardening. This thread also brings to mind that the levels of rock dust I have in my current 60ish gallons of mix is quite sub-par. I can't remember which thread, but I remember you saying that ramping the levels up to 4 cups per cuft were optimal?
    At best, my soil has a meager 1.5 cups of lava rock dust and what people tell me is mainly quartz rock dust from ones I gathered in the local river bed and crushed.

    P.S. Jerry, do you think that a 50lb sack of granite meal, or preferably GRD would be enough for a 400 gallon batch just for the trace minerals, and not necessarily for optimal microbe attachment?
     
  15. Hey Jerry :wave:
    It definitely makes a lot of sense. This is one area that I have overlooked and been under-educated about. Things are definitely starting to "click" again for me too, and it's very cool that the same thing is happening with others. There's always something new that we can learn, and the complexity of our soil microlife once again amazes me. Good stuff. :smoke:
     
  16. Poppy - granite meal, basalt, glacial rock dust - all fantastic. There has been discussion about products like colloidal clays and SRP in a high Humics soil, such as those that we make, where the humics are able to chelate unwanted heavy metals. Limestone should also not fall into the rock dust category, at least not for this purpose.we're looking for fine dusts that will be able to flow thru a 200 micron screen; essentially a "flour" consistency. I "believe" that it's all about more surface area, and the bacteria and fungi's ability to wrap around these super fine particles, at which point different enzymes are created according to both the different bacterias and the host particle that they are latched onto. I have some info on different enzymes that I will get into another time.

    Regarding amounts - Gaia Green recommends 4.25 cups per cubic foot of soil mix. Extensive testing was performed and the benefits ran out at 6 cups per cubic foot. Lets do the math, first understanding that before we add rock dust, our soil mixes are completely 100% organic matter; with the exception of the folks that use lime and/or srp, etc -

    One cubic foot equals around 7 1/2 gallons. There are 16 cups in 1 gallon.
    16 cups times 7 1/2 gallons equals almost 120 cups (119.68 cups, to be exact).

    At 5 cups of rock dust per CF of soil, this equals out to be around 4% of your soil mix.


    At 10 cups of rock dust per CF of soil, this equals out to be around 8% of your soil mix.

    I can only imagine how much rock dust is in the average natural soil - but I can just about guarantee it's a whole lot more than 8%.

    At 400 gallons of soil, and around 7.5 gallons per cubic feet of soil, the 400 gallons equals 53 cubic feet of soil, requiring 226 cups of rock dust. I'm not sure how many cups there are in 50 pounds - which, by the way I pay around $11 or $12 for at Fedco, so it's not very expensive.

    I am working on making my own heavy duty (kind of lol) mortar and pestle so that I won't have to buy it anymore.

    J
     
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  17. Got your messages Jerry - thanks. It's tough to tell when /if they go through.
     
  18. Continued -

    Cited from Remineralize the Earth; Rock Dust & Pest Control - Rock Dust and Pest Control - Remineralize the Earth

    Finely Ground Rock Dust as Short-Term Pest Control

    Many people are familiar with using diatomaceous earth (DE) for pest control, but comparatively few are aware that finely ground rock dust can be similar in efficacy and preferable in other aspects. Rock powder and DE fit into the category of “inert dusts,” which were identified as effective insecticides by the end of the nineteenth century.[iii] Inert dusts operate primarily by absorbing or disrupting the waxy superficial layer that prevents insects from rapidly drying out.[iv] They also physically repel pests, disrupt their reproductive cycles, and abrade them.[v]

    Bob Cannard, whose remineralized soil grows produce of such exceptional quality that he was chosen by Alice Waters to supply fruits and vegetables to her Chez Panisse restaurant, explains that finely crushed rock contains about 25% silicates; when applied directly to the plant, these small particles disable and discourage insects by causing various forms of mechanical discomfort. Rick Knoll of Knoll Farms has an incredible variety of curative uses for rock dust, from protecting heat-stressed fig trees to enhancing his compost tea. His experience confirms that rock dust of the appropriate consistency is a valuable alternative to harmful pesticides. “If you’re trying to grow arugula in the summertime and you get flea beetles on it, you can dust the plants….Overnight, essentially, the flea beetles will leave.”


    Rock dust exhibits moderate efficacy against many insect pests. Moderation is unacceptable for conventional agriculture, which generally relies on noxious chemicals that must eradicate insects before they decimate the malnourished crops. For sustainable agriculture, however, moderate efficacy should be the preference. Rock dust is capable of destroying and disabling insects to an extent that will limit their population and reduce crop damage. It does not obliterate insect life in a way that produces ecological imbalance and rapidly breeds resistant pests. This moderate efficacy facilitates the creation of a healthy agricultural ecosystem that will gradually require fewer palliative solutions to pest problems.

    Among organic methods of pest control, rock dust is one of the safest for people, soil, and plants. Inert dusts can cause respiratory complications resulting from excessive inhalation; the risk is mild, though, and is more pronounced in DE than in rock dust because DE contains more crystalline silica.[vi] Typical outdoor use poses minimal danger, and this could be easily eliminated by wearing a respirator. And it should be no surprise that rock dust is safe for the soil—it is, after all, an excellent soil amendment. Furthermore, according to Bob Cannard, plants “breathe in” significant mineral nutrition through the stomata on their leaf surfaces, resulting in a “very speedy response from foliar applications of finely crushed rock.” This value as a fertilizer, along with its low cost and local availability, makes rock dust preferable to DE.



    This is only a partial cite from this blog. The rest is well worth reading, including long term pest control.

    Thanks,

    jerry.
     
  19. So when I'm sitting in the backyard having a smoke and a brew while looking at my girls and the flies keep bugging me, a nice douse of rock dust will shoo them bitches away? Lol, this is good stuff! So can one brew a tea, pour it into a sprayer, add neem oil and rock dust, give it a good shake, and foliar feed the girls?
     
  20. Im actually not sure on the application, and will take a look into it, as its pretty interesting. I "believe" that they are referring to a dry dust, but I dont see why adding it to a liquid and spraying it wouldnt leave the same dust/powder residue. Here is a quote from the same article -

    “In the short-term, very fine dust sprayed directly on plants and trees has been shown to deter insect infestations very effectively,

    Take a look at this pictures from the same blog - I'd hate to be da dude on da back of the truck! :)

    j
     

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