Why would everyone be lumped together? A majority doesn't equate to an entire population saying fuck off. They're still American citizens with full citizenship rights per the Constitution as well, so really their is nothing the American government could do about it. If they tried anything they'd be sued halfway to kingdom come.
[quote name='"Mirvs"']Optimus Prime would be ashamed of your freedom hating ways Messiah. That's all I got.[/quote] Too bad Optimus Prime was from Cybertron which had a caste system similar to the one that was in India. And being a Prime, he probably liked his standing and didn't care for the freedom of others.
I hate freedom because I don't think American rogues should be allowed to take away American territory? I'll fight for civil liberties and state rights all day, every day. But what you guys are advocating is treason against America for a tax cut.
Where on Earth do you get tax cut from? I would be for seceding because Americas government is corrupt to the core and the illusion of a two party system has everyone pretending they've got a choice in representation, when the fact of the matter is the only difference between the two is that one side claims to be pro-life and the other one pro-choice, but then the fact is neither of those opinions matter, because the POTUS doesn't have a say in abortion rights, that's up to the Supreme Court. So the reality of the situation is you get Bush=Obama=Mittens, Frothy, or the Grinch. Or the American citizens stand up for our rights and force the corrupt government to stop the fraud at the polls and actually put in the ONLY candidate who will change some of this corruption in the government. Then theres no reason for secession...
He's a freedom fighter, but I don't think he would weaken the Autobots be taking away key territory from them.
What makes you think the state that secedes will share your values. Even if they do today, it doesn't mean they will tomorrow.
[quote name='"Messiah Decoy"'] He's a freedom fighter, but I don't think he would weaken the Autobots be taking away key territory from them. [/quote] ¿If they didnt have key territory how would they produce goods and services told create capital for their war?
If you believe the government owns the land and the people are just renting it then you are absolutely correct. If you believe the people own the land then their is no treason (RIP Spooner). Kind of like how Megatron tried to install himself as an imperialist dictator of Cybertron and make all the other 'bots mine Energon for him and his cronies. Anyone who disagreed with his tyrannical rule was not free to work their own lands and maintain ownership of their Energon. They were forced to flee Cybertron or face death.
The people's land is on American territory. If you buy an estate in Nevada you can't say it's no longer in America because you bought it. It's still within America's borders. Now you want to pull out a piece of chalk and draw a circle around yourself and say that your outside of America. Just cause you feel like it. If you don't want to be American, don't buy land in America. But to buy land inside the United States then say you're no longer within the borders is like living in a state, buying a house there then claiming you don't live in that state. How long are you going to play this game? Until you can't leave your property because you seceded from the state that seceded from the country? and there was a civil war on Cybertron that depleted the resources and both Autobots and Decepticons went to Earth where the Decepticons wanted it for greed and the Autobots simply want to protect the life there. So Autobots were conservationist and Decepticons were greedy capitalist wanting to exploit the land the stole from Native Americans (oops I mean humans) for raw profit (oops I mean energy).
Ya, if you think we're all just leasing the land from the Federal government then of course you don't support secession. But "Life, liberty and property" are what this country was founded on. I think any land that is specifically "Federal land" should be compensated, but all private and state property belongs to the people within the state.
People own land -> People create a government so they won't lose their land -> Government takes control of said land to protect it for the people -> The people lose their land Sounds Good! If all the people left America who would be around to give government the power it has? Ah hah, well this depends on which canon you follow. In some timelines Megatron is a decent guy who works as a miner. After his wife is killed due to government negligence he becomes a nothing-to-lose pit fighter and eventually leads an insurrection against the Cybertronian caste system. In the original storyline Optimus was not even a prime until he received the Matrix of Leadership from Sentinel Prime - this is where the bad blood between Optimus and Ultra Magnus comes from, because they are literally brothers. There were no autobots or decepticons until they made it to Earth. It was just endless civil war for control of Cybertron. Megatron is evil for the sake of being evil. I want to note that the autobots weren't really all about protecting life, so much as Optimus felt a responsibility to protect Earth from the Decepticons because he considered it partly a personal failure of his that the Decepticons were even on Earth. Of course, these stories and characters have evolved over time and have many different storylines, like most comics. Well, given that the decepticons typically have less access to energon I would say the decepticons are the conservationists. Capitalism has nothing to do with stealing land. In fact that goes against property rights. So you might want to check on your definition of Capitalism.
Claiming the US has property rights on the individual states is a strawman. If the majority of the state in question wish to secede from the union, it's because the Federal government is not doing their job. That being, according to the Constitution, representing the people of their country, and in particular the people of that state. This is the reason for the 10th Ammendment, because something that is good for, say, Rhode Island, might not be good for Texas. So, say for example, if a federal law mandates that every state now receives exactly 5 delegates in a primary election, instead of the numbers that depend on population, or whatever criteria they use now (I'm just using some hypothetical theory, that would obviously illustrate what I mean here). So, Texas gets the same number of delegates as Rhode Island in a Presedential primary? Texas says we ain't having it, and votes to secede. It's pretty obvious that there's a lot more to be concerned with than "federal property". As in, why is the system so fucked up that people's rights are being ignored, and voting a new candidate in, doesn't change a damn thing. At this point, the federal government has failed in their part of the contract with the citizens, that contract being the Constitution, and therefore, they lose any and all claims to "their property" within the states or states that wish to secede.
I love the fact you can see who voted for what, now we know who the British Loyalists are on the forum.
I see America as a dying empire, at least militarily. So I think the redcoats could help us adjust to being empire on the fall
dunno if he responded to this (didn't read past this post) but: the line is where you use force against another person or infringe on their own individual rights. so a nuke would be okay to own, but not to use. and i dont advocate nuclear explosives in the possession of anyone but still edit: messiahdecoy keeps saying "traitor" like it's a bad thing. why?
Yes states should be allowed to secede but there would be a hell of a war on your hands. No nation would willingly give up a chunk of its territory without a fight. So you'd better have enough other states to back you up when shit gets tough