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Rick Simpson Oil: Carcinogenic?

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by raichiss, Nov 16, 2013.

  1. Greetings! I'm a long time lurker, but I had to make an account just to start this discussion:

    In Rick Simpson's instructions for producing his famous "Phoenix Tears" cannabis extract oil - particularly his popular YouTube video - He recommends "pure Naphtha" as the solvent of choice as well as a large polycarbonate bucket (and plastic 'Culligan' water jugs).

    Perhaps he doesn't know, and if not I'm sure many who have followed his instructions are similarly ignorant, but Naphtha will quickly degrade - and leach - plastic. In fact despite the title of his video, "How to Make Rick Simpson's Medicinal Hemp Oil Safely", this is probably one of the most dangerous ways to attempt a cannabis extraction.

    As someone with cancer in my immediate family, I am facinated with recent scientific research proving the efficacy of cannabinoids in treating carcinogenic tumors, but am upset that "Rick Simpson Oil" has taken the spotlight considering it has the potential to be carcinogenic itself. Has this been addressed?
     
  2.  Snake oil, IMO.  While cannabis does have wonderful medical properties, it shouldn't be regarded as some sort of magical cure-all panacea.  This is doing nothing but harming the legalization movement, and making cannabis users worldwide look ridiculous.
     
  3. "Rick Simpson oil" is a badly made form of a truly powerful cannabis medicine - full extract cannabis oil made from buds, extracted with pure food grade ethanol (aka Everclear, grain alcohol).  Rick used Naphtha, which is what he had -- but I wouldn't take the chance myself, ethanol is the safest possible solvent, it's the only one you could consume and not die.
     
    As far as Cannabis Oil curing cancer -- obviously there haven't been any studies yet (thanks to the DEA and the federal government), but it's happening underground, and first-hand experiences from across the world are telling an amazing story, and showing "terminal" cancers being put into remission with concentrated cannabis extracts.
     
    There's no peer reviewed studies yet -- but I'll say that if I developed cancer I'd try a 60g/60day ethanol-extracted cannabis oil treatment before I'd try chemo.
     
  4. I just found this study: http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/en_2013_01_1.pdf

    It claims that after analyzing samples they found significant PHC (petroleum hydrocarbon) residue in Rick Simpson's method, and that plain olive oil is actually a better substitute (and not Isopropyl alcohol, as Rick Simpson also recommends). In fact, in the Rick Simpson method, they found as much residual Naphtha as terpene compounds - and I'm betting they didn't use a plastic bucket...
     
    When I tried searching for this article again today, I found what seems to be the official Rick Simpson Facebook page. They claim:
     
    This all seems pretty ridiculous. Even butane, with a boiling point of 0C makes more sense, but why would they continue defending the use of Naphtha - especially after recommending polycarbonate containers?

    The study I found seems to imply that, assuming we heat and decarboxylate the plant matter before extraction, olive oil is a better option than any industrial solvent, even though it has a slightly lower THC output (not sure about CBD). I feel like there is something shady about using carcinogens to create medicine for people with cancer - isn't that what they claim about chemotherapy in the first place? I agree, smokehound, his whole ethos seems really sketchy to me.

    I would love to see a similar study done using coconut oil, as its high saturated fat content should make an even more potent extraction than olive oil.

    Also, MajorStoner, from what I've read, although they have not documented 'curing' cancer, a number of studies have demonstrated cannabinoids' antitumor effects: http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/healthprofessional/page4
     
  5. Although I'm extracting with ethanol I can offer some marginal help.  I mix my hash oil with other oils to produce repeatable doses.  My most recent is mixed with a fish oil high in EPA, DHA & Vit. D.  I think it drove bio-availability way up.  Most of the hot water bath oil extraction methods lack a reasonable way to get to dose control.
     
    If you want to do an oil extraction consider starting with Kief or bubble Hash that has been decarboxylated.  You can weigh the hash and measure your oil before mixing and if you want filtering.   About 3 gm of Kief mixed into 1 fluid Oz. of your favorite oil should produce a medicine that provides a medicinal dose in the 2 to 6 drop range.  I use about 2 gm's of hash oil to do the same thing.
     
  6. So? Marijuana MAY be carcinogenic too. However, there is a HUGE misconception among the general population as to what carcinogenic means. An agent that only causes tissue damage may be called "carcinogenic" because that is a precancerous sign. However, that doesn't mean that it causes cancer. It's like how spots on your tongue may indicate cancer, but they more likely mean something else completely harmless (such as a canker sore). That's why whenever referring to a carcinogen, scientists make use of the word "may cause cancer," not will cause cancer. Also, many agents require certain conditions to be cancerous, and I see Naphtha as being no different. It might degrade certain substances, but have little effect on more organic substances when used in the way it is to make oil. Remember, the water that makes up the majority of this earth and the majority of your body contains the most volatile explosive on this planet - hydrogen. However, just because something is an explosive doesn't mean that it is always volatile. The same thing is true with carcinogens - they act as carcinogens only under certain conditions. I see no problem in the use of this hemp oil
     
  7. The water example is a false equivalent; water is not dangerous because it is a stable molecule, and unless it undergoes electrolysis, it remains water. Naphtha is toxic and poisonous by itself, and in the research I posted a significant amount of naphtha remains in the final product (not to mention dissolved plastic residue from his buckets, and impurities in the solvent itself).

    It seems to me that consuming even small amounts of naphtha - in addition to BPA and other plastic residues - over the course of Rick Simpson's "treatment" is unwise for a healthy person, much less someone who is immunocompromised.

    Even people who make BHO will purge their final product under a vacuum because even though butane boils at 0 C (much lower than naphtha), there will still be residual solvent and yes, it is toxic and dangerous. I feel like if Rick Simpson were really concerned with people's health and felt that an industrial solvent was absolutely necessary to achieve the desired level of concentration, he would at least recommend the far more common method of BHO extraction.

    Furthermore, the study I posted shows that naphtha is only nominally better than olive oil at extracting active compounds, and Rick Simpson's method completely destroys terpene compounds. Why naphtha in a plastic bucket? Why not tell people with cancer to try cannabis coconut oil or butter - a well documented method humans have used for thousands of years?
     
  8. Don't for
     
     
    Don't forget the cooks exposure to the Naphtha and the fact that when it is boiled to atmosphere that there will be an impact on the environment.  Whether it re-condenses and falls with the rain to create a down wind brown field or remains up there contributing to the greenhouse gases matters little.  Trading the future for this is a bad trade.
     
  9. <<<Furthermore, the study I posted shows that naphtha is only nominally better than olive oil at extracting active compounds, and Rick Simpson's method completely destroys terpene compounds. Why naphtha in a plastic bucket? Why not tell people with cancer to try cannabis coconut oil or butter - a well documented method humans have used for thousands of years?>>>
     
    So in this method, what exactly would you do?  Just replace the naphtha with coconut oil and follow the rest of the directions exactly?
     
  10. #10 Honokiol, Nov 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2013
    With coconut oil you are making a direct edible.  Many cancer patients and other patients cut the RSO with it before capping it up.  It's easier to get dose control that way.  He is just cutting out the middle man, in this case that is the naphtha.  As long as he can sift a good kif or make a good bubble hash he can weigh & measure and get to the same quantity of medicine in a cap as you can with RSO.  Not all of us vape or smoke our meds.
     
  11. I'm in the enviro restoration & soil disposal business. It's funny bc I had started my own Rick's thread. We started a back & forth on that as well. I'm glad I read this thread bc I had been considering buying or making it so that I could maybe head off a tumor that may very well one day reoccur. As I mentioned; I'm in the environmental business. We read chem analysis reports all day. After reading your thread here I just made a quick 180 turn.When we encounter naphtha on a job we usually have a slew of other test that follow to confirm the levels as they pertain to ppm. We usually have to dispose of the contaminated materials at a treatment facility that will either Thermally heat the soil to 1800 degrees f or treat the material w bio organisms & or dilute the material down if the levels were low enough.It's worth noting that when dealing w naphtha we have to line the bodies of the truck to avoid any residuals as well as outfit the men who may be within 200 feet with hepa filtered masks.I guess I will be using a different extraction method. Thanks everyone. Be well & good luck!
     
  12. life is carcinogenic, there is no safety, that's an illusion some people choose to propagate and deceive others with. with that being said i could care less about trace contaminants in anything simply because no one has any way of eliminating them. we live with millions of trace contaminants everyday and we're still here, perhaps the OP should find something else to worry about.
     
  13. [quote name="frankherear" post="19086906" timestamp="1385995419"]I'm in the enviro restoration & soil disposal business. It's funny bc I had started my own Rick's thread. We started a back & forth on that as well. I'm glad I read this thread bc I had been considering buying or making it so that I could maybe head off a tumor that may very well one day reoccur. As I mentioned; I'm in the environmental business. We read chem analysis reports all day. After reading your thread here I just made a quick 180 turn.When we encounter naphtha on a job we usually have a slew of other test that follow to confirm the levels as they pertain to ppm. We usually have to dispose of the contaminated materials at a treatment facility that will either Thermally heat the soil to 1800 degrees f or treat the material w bio organisms & or dilute the material down if the levels were low enough.It's worth noting that when dealing w naphtha we have to line the bodies of the truck to avoid any residuals as well as outfit the men who may be within 200 feet with hepa filtered masks.I guess I will be using a different extraction method. Thanks everyone. Be well & good luck![/quote]Upon finding another form of extraction, do PLEASE post any findings here. Sent from my XT907 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  14. exactly!  if the person is planning to take the oil for the rest of their lives then yeah, come up with something else but for people who are sick need to take now and be done with it to get rid of their sickness. compared to properly purged RSO and the whole cycle of using RSO people will get more toxins in their body from driving to the store and breathing their neighbors car exhaust.
     
  15. I use everclear since my daughter will be using RSO for the rest of her life. Sent from my HTC One using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  16. Couldn't one use dry ice to extract using a bubble bag - say size 73 - and then decarb for an hour, mix with some coconut oil and be pretty much the same thing as RSO?
     
    This would also eliminate any strong chemical for the extraction.
     
    Thoughts?
     
  17. research polar and non polar solvents and that will give your answer as to why one is better than the other.
     
  18. I'm bumping this in hopes that more people will respond as I think Raichiss has a good point.  Anyone out there know more about this? 
     
  19. Chemistry is not my strong suite.


    If anyone can answer directly, I'd be grateful.


    Two questions:


    1. I'm unwilling to use Naptha. I can use coconut oil without problem. Would coconut oil make a better extraction than dry ice?


    2. How long would an oil made with coconut, kept in the refrigerator last? My problem is not getting it, it is keeping it with the supply I can produce.


    Thanks in advance.
     
  20. why don't they just use the same method of making hash, using ice to seperate the oils from the ground up mixture and then strain it is with several layers of finer and finer holes, like they do when people make hash from trimmings. Also although expensive maybe ether in a liquid or gas form) be used. i am an engineer, but in electronics , not chemistry.


    Luke
     
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