Religious response to Epicurus quote?

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by mrblonde77, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. Well the point I am trying to make is that, well firstly, I don't believe in any theistic being. I think it is purely human mythology.

    In that sense, when I see this argument, I see a rebuttal such as yours trying to rationalize the evil that said theistic being supposedly allows, despite being omnipotent (he could just as easily create a universe where evil simply does not exist), but he could create a universe in which we are perpetually and internally reminded of the relativity of good and evil.

    Instead I would propose that the average human morality is born out of evolutionary demand and societal cultivation. Far more of the previous than the aft. The rationalization is just an attempt to validate a theistic being as a creator, because it is borne out of the innate urge to know and understand.

    Just my two cents

    Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires.

    Dr. Sigmund Freud- A Philosophy of Life (Lecture 35)
  2. Not in the usual sense, no. I prefer to call it God but it's definitely not the usual definition of God.

    I personify it so I can visualize it- I can't really imagine energy so I personify it. It's more of a story than anything that represents the energy so I can 'see it'.
  3. thats entirely irrelevant. there's nothing humans can do about natural disasters. i believe we're talking about decisions in every day life.
  4. Those who are saying the bible says this therfore is so could'nt be more wrong.Think about it.The first scientific thories are always debunked,and the truth is always known thru more research.Do you really wanna rule your life with a book made 2000 years ago,I don't think that would be mentally stable of you,or very scientific to say they least.

    We don't move back we move forward,and the Bible is the farthest behind we can go.(not just the bible,you know what I'm trying to say)

    Time to attack Freewill...

    Why in the hell does one book get to tell us what we have and don't have,animals are'nt aware of free will,but they still obey the rules of the world and or universe.

    There's no such thing as free will,we do wahtever the fuck we wanna do,if it's positive we advance,if it's negative,well you know.....Death....

    We are all responsible for our own well being as a whole,religion preach's one central form of power,sounds like a dictatorship to me...
  5. I don't understand the whole part about babies dying. And lots, every day. Free Will doesn't really explain that one very well.
  6. Especially the types of horrific deformities which cause pain and suffering.
  7. You're absolutely right about natural evils. I was just arguing about evil that stems from human actions. There's always the greater good response. It argues that a "first order evil allows for a second order good". So if a baby dying is considered lets say a fifth order evil then a sixth order good would somehow result from it.

    I don't believe in that theory, just throwing it out there because its a common response to your question. I really don't have a good answer to that at all. Also when we say that God is wholly good, we are using our own standards and definitions of good to define God. God may be completely good and "perfect" just not in a way we can comprehend.

    Contradicting yourself? How are we supposed to "do wahtever the fuck we wanna" if we don't have control over our actions and choices. I do agree with you that we shouldn't rely too much on the bible. Remember that just because all the religions got it wrong doesn't mean there isn't a god.
  8. This is definitely a major hangup for many logical thinkers concerning the existence of God yet us having free will.

    Also there is the other point of this universe being so vast and large that chance ultimately runs things to a point that you think you have free will but it's actually the universe shaping you.

    Where you live, what you are, what the time period is ultimately makes for different experiences, so free will goes out the window on what you were or when you were or where you were.

    The solution for me?

    We are God, we are the universe. We determined everything and we experience everything- our will is free because we are Infinite.

    We have no definition until we make one.

    But if God makes everything possible and knows everything- the only way we could still have free will would be if we were actually Him.

    If we are not, we are just some elaborate puppets if there is a God that is all-powerful.
  9. It's not entirely irrelevant. In fact it's the other way around. I am not asking about decisions of every day life. I'm asking what the response is to those statements made by Epicurus especially applied to natural disasters. If God is so perfect and everything why would he make the world extremely dangerous and unstable. Surely he wouldn't want his special creations (made in the likeness of him of course) to die from extremely random and devastating events! What an asshole considering he has the power to stop them....doesn't he?
  10. Hopefully I won't repeat what anybody has said, but I thought I would give my interpretation before reading the thread.

    God is neither able or willing to prevent evil; because of the very classification of good, you must have an evil.

    This is one of the characteristics of all of creation, it is a dualistic creation, every action has a reaction, without exception.

    I think the reason why you believe that this defeats God, is that you haven't properly defined good and evil.

    Good is the process of growing your soul, and evil is doing the reverse.

    This is not a mistake it is the fundemental underlying structure of the universe, and could be said to be the Word of God.
  11. But what about natural evils?

    Yes and the antithesis of creation would be death.


    What is this soul thing you speak of? I can't locate it.

    I can't remember where in the Bible they talk about the Universe and it's fundamental underlying structures.

  12. If I remember my highschool biology, I believe that the Soul is located just above the vermiform appendix.
  13. But why did he interfere- in the tower of babel?

    So are we just partakers in this useless game which he has created for his own self amusement? i cant seem to see it in any other way man. we're just sparring with time, and this evil which he has injected into the world is for his own amusement and plot to the game.

    I see absolutle nothing ch3velle... "his eternal power and divine nature-have clearly been seen... so that men are without excuse" are you reffering to the Egyptions, Romans or Greek civilisations which had no clue as to what to believe or worship because God was too busy sulking against israel ?so they took stones and rocks and trees, can you blame them? if a sense of 'morality' or knowlege of justice and right and wrong as evidence of God's 'eternal power and divine nature' then perhaps you could be right on your way.
  14. woah this thread weirded me out.
  15. Open up your eyes, everything that you see is what he is refering to. There is nothing you can see that isn't. You may not recognize it, but you are seeing it no matter what. That was what those words meant.
  16. When i open my eyes man, i see nothing, no evidence of any deity whatsoever - i dont know what the apostle Paul was reffering to because this God has hidden himself from us. have you ever heard this God speak? have you ever seen him? have you ever spoken to him and recieved a reply? is there even any logical evidence to even hold up a sound argument for his existence except for a belief? and those things which we fail to comprehend or easily explain?

    "...For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have clearly been seen, being understood from what has been made"

    Clearly been seen? may i ask by whom ?
  17. He is saying it's all around us, we just have to view it subjectively.

    Yes I've seen God, yes I've spoken to Him and yes I received a reply, but not in the sense that people normally describe God as.

    This is what is hanging you up. I believe God's power is divided amongst ourselves, life would be the closest thing to represent God to me.

    That's why I say you are already seeing it.

  18. Can you elaborate a little more on this statement?

    I would love to understand what you mean by:

    "Yes I've seen God"


    "yes I've spoken to Him"


    "yes I recieved a reply"
  19. "Yes I've seen God"

    God is all things to me

    "yes I've spoken to Him"

    My own mind and the minds of others

    "yes I've received a reply"

    I think and I talk to others

    People just get hung up on the subjective explainations they give what they deem God. That is a major problem expressing my belief in God- that I don't use words that others relate to my beliefs.

    I need some new words to represent the Father and Lucifer I guess. God just gets the God of Abraham wrap every time because that's where I got it from... ;)

    I'll figure it out somehow, but I prefer to call it God and Lucifer it seems the most familiar to me.

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