You seem to think tax money goes directly to the pockets of these people in power. It doesn't. It funds social infrastructure. Yes, without people contributing tax money, we would not be maintaining or advancing our society, at the very least not nearly as much as we are now. America is the worst example like I've said, but still. Also, you nor Norse have not posted a viable alternative to the system we have now.
Everyone contributes because they are forced ultimately by threat of violence, if that is what you mean by obligated, I agree, and that is immoral, it is extortion and leads to corruption. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Do we need to provide a viable alternative to recognize and fight against evil? Even if anarchistic societies did not have all the bells and whistles that modern society has, I would still be in favor of it because it is the moral option. I don't think that would be the case though. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
I wouldn't mind a response to post 152 if you would. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Read or listen to Stefan Molyneux's every day anarchy and practical anarchy. It's deep detail into one possibility that I agree with but can't explain as well. Especially on my phone. They are free books both text and audio. That's a good into "Let it be written, let it be done. Slowly I walk toward the fractured light."
You're a conspiracy guy. Dude, kids aren't brainwashed in school, they learn how to read, write, and do math. They aren't taught that the state is the best and government is the only solution. The worst curriculum in public schooling is history, which is often skewed or misrepresented, because the victors write the story. I am not ok with what America has spent its debt money on. However, if we were taking out debt to build a better society faster, yes, it is ok to have taken out debt to build advanced social infrastructure. It makes the country better, sooner.
sure....this is public school math. "In the time it took you to read this sentence 50,000 acres burned in the rain forest because of big business. How many acres will burn in 24 hrs?" "On average 10 people are shot in Chicago daily, how many lives would be saved if guns were outlawed?" And now in kindergarten " no no no Jonny its not he jumped over the red dog its Ze because although Ze has balls Ze is clearly wearing a dress." "Jonny now go stand over there in the time out box and think about it please, no not there that's the safe space box its the red square not the pink square."
Our public education system clearly doesn’t stop people from becoming environmental or statistical researchers.
Don't try to dismiss the content by saying I am a conspiracy nut. See there you go, you can justify selling out the unborn because you feel it is worth it. That is gross, you would enslave others for 'society' sake. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
I didn't dismiss anything, I addressed your post. You call it enslaving, I call it creating a better society quicker. Like I said, I'm not going to argue semantics of your view of slavery and theft. If you want to argue, you need to argue whether or not debt and taxes are an effective means of creating a functioning society, and the LOGISTICS of why or why not they should be implemented, not try to have a pointless semantics argument about "theft" and "slavery"
The Germans did what they did in effort to create a better society quicker, so if that is all it takes to justify ones immoral actions, that is where it can lead, easily. You think governments do wrong and tell people it is NOT for their own good? No they spy for your good, steal for your good, war for your good, assassinate for your good, imprison for your own good, etc... I guess if you swallow all that then there isn't much I can say to change a stance that is irrational because I am only going to appeal to reason. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Just curious returnfire333, is your goal in this convo to challenge yourself and learn or just plant your feet? I dont want to waste each others time. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
The Germans did what they did to try to create an authoritarian state based on global domination. Not to create a "good society" false equivalencies... This is why I am not talking about America in my argument about taxation, America is trying to be a global dominator and is aimed at fulfilling the desires of the wealthy elite. Believe me, I am not defending America nor pretending we are a Utopia state or the good guys, but we are creating an advanced society, just in immoral ways, like our war policy. There are too many differences today to compare to nazi Germany, however. I don't necessarily have a goal. If you actually argue something that isn't conspiracy oriented, unrealistically ideal, possibly delusional, or all of the above, I might stand to learn something, otherwise, my goal would be to convince you that your arguments are all of the above, which will obviously be fruitless, since you can't get over the semantics argument of slavery and theft.
That might have been the goal of the upper echelons of the Nazi heirarchy, but that wasn't what was bring preached to the masses, it is not a false equivalence because the duped German people went along with the Nazis, believing that the Jews were the reason for Germanys dire situation. In other words, they justified violating the rights of Jews for the sake of the Homeland. I am wondering, what human right can you not justify violating for "a better society". You certainly aren't making a better society for the people you violate. I encourage you to really soul search on that question. I can argue or document the things I say, no conspiracy or delusions here. Things I say may sound like conspiracy to the uninformed, but that is not l strictly my problem. I understand not wanting to use America as example in this discussion, but I am vastly more knowledgeable about the USA than any other country so I don't want to speculate about other countries I am ignorant. Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Edit: Alright, I'll rescind this post. Yes, America is using tax dollars to fund genocide via our military. However, the problem is not with government, nor taxation, the problem is with greed, political power, and global spectrum dominance. This is why I said I do not want to use America as the anchor for my argument. If you try to hold YOUR argument for other reputable industrialized countries like Canada or the Nordic countries, your argument falls flat. Only in America can you say that our taxation is immoral. Taxation is not immoral, MISUSE of taxation is.
Oh no, my argument doesn't fall flat, every country and every government violates its peoples rights. I don't say taxation is immoral ONLY if it is used for immoral purposes, it is always immoral by the very nature of the act. If I take your money against your will to feed a homeless person, does that somehow turn an otherwise immoral act into an amoral or moral act? Have you by chance ever been exposed to any of Lysander Spooners work? If not you should check it out sometime. If you can spare 6minutes here is an excerpt Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
Your video does have some fact in it, but for starters, your natural law bullshit, is bullshit. There is no such thing, it's idealist, unfeasible bullshit. And even if it were even possible, laws are a completely human construct. You say you are against government. Your idea of natural law is LITERALLY A FORM OF GOVERNMENT. It would LITERALLY be a form of governing a society. People are not just going to be born and follow natural law, it has to be enforced, hence GOVERNMENT. That is not freedom. Freedom would be for people to follow natural law, or to kill eachother and steal from eachother, that would be freedom. That would be anarchy. The truth lies in the fact that yes, government has formed from thieves and pillagers. But your video is using antiquated examples from centuries ago to make its point. It is less severe in todays day, even in America with corporate billionaires taking advantage of our tax dollars. Taxes today give us functioning social infrastructure. Government takes us as close to "natural law" as human nature will allow. If I have to provide justification for the obligation to help your fellow man, you have to justify why you are not obligated help your fellow man. We are in a coherent society. Like I already said multiple times, a poor society is a poor society to live in. You say you want to follow "natural law" yet, you don't want to help your fellow man... and here I thought you were a "moral person" as the video states. it's almost like you're making up your OWN "natural laws" Now. I am expecting you to address all aspects of my post as a whole, and not nitpick anything to make your point, as too many people do.
Btw, back to your admission that the U.S. is using your money for genocide, don't you have a moral obligation to not support genocide (or all the other atrocities)? If not, why not? Sent from my VS995 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
I'd like you to address the entirety of my post. Like I said, I do not support alot of what the USA does. I do support taxation in general however. I support taxation in Canada and the Nordic countries. They provide universal healthcare, affordable higher education, affordable childcare, low drug costs, high teacher salaries, etc, etc, while maintaining their independence and freedom and not unjustly entering immoral wars, unfairly proportionalizing their tax rates, and spending tax dollars on corporate bailouts. Instead of trying to argue against me using America, the worst possible example, why don't you try arguing with the Nordic countries system of taxation as the basis of your argument.