Questions For Christians

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by Minuteman420, Apr 30, 2009.

  1. Hey this is a question (or two) for all you devout christians out there.
    You guys believe that god created everything he did intentionally, knowing full well what he was up to. Atleast this is my understanding after taking 4 years of christian studies.
    In the bible it states that "God looked at all he had created and it was good".

    So here are the questions.
    1. If god created everything, where does evil come from. I've been taught that it "entered the world through the sin of eve". But what exactly does this mean and how the hell is it possible. You guys believe there is one and only one god, how is it that this evil somehow just came to be?

    2. If god created everything, and knew full well what his creations would become. How does the argument of free will/predestination come into play. In my mind from everything ive learned about how god is viewed (ominous, all knowing, etc.) I'm led to believe that god had a "plan" for everything he created. Meaning anything you do in your own life according to your beliefs will fit gods plan for you, meaning everything is predetermined.

    edit: addendum to question 2. Since god is all knowing that means that god is not specificaly found in one point of time. For example god can travel freely back and forth through time. So he has been 100 years into the future and 100 years into the past, when you were "created" god therefore KNEW EXACTLY what you would do in every point of your life. (just a bit of a backdrop to my reasoning for question 2).


    So basically the 2 question are.
    1. where did evil come from.
    2. show me your logic for arguments for or against predestination.
     
  2. I used to be a devout Christian, so my current bias in mind, I'll try to shed some light on some of this from a Christian point of view.


    When Eve and Adam ate the 'forbidden fruit' from the 'sacred tree' (tree of knowledge/wisdom, perhaps), they became self-aware, so to speak. They were then outcast from the garden of Eden and punished for disobeying God's directive.

    The serpent is a representation of Satan or Lucifer, who was once God's best angel in heaven. Lucifer basically rebelled against God with some other angels (if I recall correctly) and was thus outcast into hell along with the angels that followed him, who became his demons. Since then Lucifer has been essentially at war with God, trying to deny him followers whilst inflating his own 'armies' in anticipation of judgment day where he means to overthrow God.

    I, personally, find all of this rather outlandish. Granted though, it could be argued that it is completely open to interpretation, and that it may not have happened as literally as it is presented. Regardless, there is an extreme lack of logic in all of this, for a God who is supposed to be without flaw and all-knowing.


    This is actually a huge factor which lead to my own lack of belief. It is said that God has a pre-destined plan for every single person and even for the world as a whole, as it is represented in Revelation and other books of the Bible. My deal is, what is our purpose in being if we are all just on a linear path that has been pre-determined for us. What is the point of it all? If everything is pre-planned, then free will is just an illusion, in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't add up to me.
     
  3. Ah I see.

    I didnt know about lucifer being an angel that had fallen, as ive read about it in all sorts of fiction etc. (the show supernatural and the book paradise lost) but i didnt know thats what was up in the bible. Thanks for shedding some light on that.

    And yeah...anyone else for the pre-destination opinio?
     
  4. I'm an atheist, btw.
    I believe that we have an illusion of free will. Right now, I can't really see anything wrong with determinism. We're gonna do what we're gonna do, there's nothing we can change about that.

    Although, that doesn't mean there had to be a 'plan' for anything. That just means that effect follows cause.
     
  5. I was raised in a christian family but I never really believed but I will answer #1.

    Without Satan, God would really have no purpose. We strive to make ourselves worthy in his eyes so we dont go to hell. Just like how you cannot have darkness without light, I see that God cannot exist without Satan
     
  6. ive been a christian my whole life and will always be.

    i believe the sin first started with eve eating the forbidden fruit like the bible says. i hate hearing people say, oh if eve wouldnt have done that our world would still be perfect. but i think that anyone that would have been in her position would have done the same thing, because of our sin nature. God showed us this story or account to show us that we all have sin nature.

    thats just my views
     
  7. God is infallible, right? God created the world, right? There is evil in the world, right? So one is led to believe that the infallible God created evil...

    Right?

    Oh wait, He also judges us for that evil that He created and sends us all to Hell in a hand basket.
     
  8. I've always been curious about this...
    So there was no such thing as evil in the world before Adam and Eve...
    And then Eve eats this piece of fruit, and suddenly Evil springs into existence? All because someone ate a fruit? How can "evil", clearly a concept, come into existence because of someone's actions? It defies the definition of a concept.
     
  9. from my personal point of view (christian). our lives on earth are a test of faith so in order to test us he made a plan for satan to be a fallen angel and be the opposite of god. if the devil wasnt in existence, it would be easy to reach heaven. so what would be the point?
     
  10. #10 ArgoSG, May 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2009
    The easiest way to understand that there is no benevolent God who tests your faith is to simply consider what you would do if you were a good and just God? The notion of testing faith, much like we see in classical literature, even the bible itself(The disgusting story of Abraham where he almost murders his own child because God decides to test his faith), the idea is repulsive on it's face. No good God would ever reward or care about belief in them. God would reward people for being good and that alone. They would not expect their human creation to sift through thousands of ancient texts and figure out which is the right one, and fuck with 4 billion people who happen to get it wrong because they were born in other countries. A good God would not punish otherwise good and caring members of society by rejecting them from paradise because they happened to believe in the wrong image of the God. A small girl is about to be terrifying as you read my post, this is because she is about to experience the horrifying misfortune of being raped and beaten. A good god would never allow for things like this, and any arguments consisting of "Mysterious plans" and "working in strange ways" is posturing out of desperation. The question of God alone is an interesting one and all, and I never expect to know for sure in my lifetime(there could be a creator and no afterlife), but you don't need anything beyond a bit of formal logic understanding, maybe some introductory philosophical ideas and a little natural human critical inquiry to understand that religions like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are complete and total mythology with no truth to the core doctrines. This is a safe bet to make, all signs point to this being the truth. Same goes for the best thing these religions promise, Infinite pleasure for infinity, the afterlife, heaven, or paradise. This seems to be the biggest lie in human history. Always hurts to burst that bubble.. but...

    There is a bright side, we can always work towards creating paradise here on Earth. Sure, this will come at a few costs. I don't see room for absurdly rich CEO's in any variation of a human society whose core concern is how they can avoid all suffering. History says there can be revolutions, and I'm happy for all of them. I'm happy that no doctor is ignorant enough now to drain my blood as a means of curing me. I'm happy that no one is drilling a hole in my head to release the 'demons'. I'm glad for many things like this, but I want more. I want real progress. Like I said though, at a few costs. I don't have any Utopian solution myself, but I would start with having less .. just off the top of my head... lavish boutiques exclusively for the super-rich, and more of the people involved there applying stem cells to children with terminal diseases and serious injuries like 3rd degree burns. Maybe it's just me, but the smiles on the children s faces will probably be of higher value than their net worth. I think good reasons are contagious, so if you agree with this message, make an effort of spread it even if it costs you losing face for discussing controversial issues. If you disagree with this message, you should have contagious reasons of your own and we will undoubtedly agree or engage in a discussion where some learning can be done.

    Peace, and nice forum.
     
  11. I grew up in a very religious family too..

    Something I never understood:
    In the context of eternity, our lives, however long they are, are a flash of lightning. Less than a flash of lightning - a miniscule speck in the fabric of eternity.
    Why, then, would a loving God judge our souls, and possibly condemn us into hell for the rest of eternity, for what we did for such a SHORT period of time? Isn't that, I don't know.. unfair?

    I just don't understand it. I also find it hard to come to terms with the whole "where did evil come from" thing.. if God is all good.. and everything came from God.. then wouldn't God have CREATED evil?
     
  12. Hey guys, im back.

    Alright so alot of you guys are saying that god created evil as a test for humanity, to seperate the righteous from the ill-minded, this seperation resulting in the inhabitants of heaven and hell.

    Now if we connect the two questions i asked. Where and why does evil exist to the idea of predestination. God created every single one of us exactly as we are. God knew exactly how we would turn out (this is true as he is ALL KNOWING - note: if you say this statement is not true then does that not completely dispute the idea that god is all knowing as shown in the bible?) whether or not we would go to heaven or hell. If this is the case (which i may be misunderstanding - if so let me know how) then what the fuck is the point of this so called test?

    note: the above paragraph is full of my views, evil is created as a test, and that every aspect of our lives is pre-determined in a way.
    What do you guys think of my view? Notice how its a complete circle, god creates us knowing whether we end up in heaven and hell and yet decides to even still bring evil into play, perhaps to fuck with us, perhaps to give us something to do. Who knows.

    A wise teacher of mine once compared God to an irresponsible parent. Imagine this parent. This parent turns a stove element on, and leaves their 3 year old child sitting on the countertop that is level with the stove. This child, has of course seen their parent cooking with the stove but doesnt really understand the concept, not knowing what he is doing, goes over to the stove element and burns him or herself badly. The parent then punishes the child for doing such a stupid act.

    This compares to god as in, God gave humans a questioning nature. We can never know 100% sure whether or not god exists. Whether what we do in our lifetime determines where we end up after life. We as humans CANNOT know this. Yet if we sin we go to hell, and our punished for what we did while not knowing this.

    In my opinion this is a great euphanism (is that the word ) or analogy.
    What do you guys think about it?

    P.S. - I think Christianity is bullshit. I believe in an ultimate creator. Not a god like the christian one, just a God who created earth and the first beings on earth, he created the rules of nature, which allowed these beings to go through the entire evolutionary process. God himself playing no role in it. Eventually humans arose and we live our lives as we want, this god plays no role in it, i believe in no afterlife.
    (For those of you that have read any comments i have made on suicide and thought "wow this guy is a total retard", my "religous beliefs" will show you why i have little to no value for life.)

    ***
    I know lots of people probably wont read my post cuz its pretty long, but i dont express myself like this often, so i thought i should :D

    peace.
     
  13. this was good. i agree with a lot of what you said. ive always been taught to believe that people who are "evil" go to hell and people who are "good" go to heaven. but what weve been taught as good or bad is basically a handed down, manipulated over time, and messed up version of what was thaught as good and evil back in bible times. like how it is very unclear about the judgements for things such as marijuana and other drugs. ive been changing this view ive been taught to thinking about it like this: if a person feels like it is truly wrong to do something that is between him and God, then whether he does that action or not determines if hes good or evil.

    and if always asked the question about what God does to the people who have never even got the chance to believe in Him. if he truly is fair, he would let those people into heaven, or give them another chance somehow, which i think he does. same with infants who die.

    but my views are coming from a christian background so yeah
     
  14. Thanks for your input/

    Also thought id mention all these "views" i have on christianity come from 4 years of lame christian schooling. Unfortunately ;) that schooling got me interested in a few aspects of the christian fate, never thought to ask, but now i thought i would ask some questions i had to good old regular folk before i take them to a priest
     
  15. I'm afraid I'm going to have to turn this into a bigger bummer, but Christianity, at least if you're living in the United States, is responsible for the criminalization of Marijuana. The moment you replace our deeply religious citizens with the populations of any western European nation, Marijuana criminalization would be impossible to uphold because there would be too few supporting it and too many opposing it.
     
  16. Is that why there are so many countries in western Europe that have legalized marijuana?....Oh, wait.

    Do a little research before you make such bias and ridiculously absurd statements. Here's a good place to start: Legal history of cannabis in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Funny, after reading that article it appears that it's the government that's responsible for the criminalization of marijuana as opposed to members of the Christian faith.

    Knowledge is power.
     
  17. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?"
    - Epicurus

    I don't think I could have phrased it any better.
     
  18. Because of our sin nature? how could she have "sin nature" if their was still no such thing as sin?
     
  19. its more of something that the bible teaches. thats what im talking about in regards to sin nature. but your question is interesting. because its taught that sin came from the devil who was a fallen angel. so coming from a christian point of view im led to believe that God either let evil take place on purpose or he brought it into the world being that he is the creator
     

  20. how could christians think their god is anything but the lamest peice of shit excuse for a god ever created? you poor people are wasting your lives away
     

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