Question for people who believe in god/gods

No...just the opposite, they CAN think rationally....though they cannot justify why within their own worldview.

I'm not at all sure that they do but let's say that they did...so what? Does the fact that people believe different things mean none can know the truth about something? I hope you aren't saying that...that's horrible reasoning.

Let's keep it simple....I'll ask you specifically.

We'd both agree that to even have this conversation we must use the laws of logic. Agreed?

The laws of logic have certain properties; they are immaterial (you can't stub your toe on them) they are universal in their scope (they are true at all times in every part of the universe) and they are immutable (they don't change)

So given those descriptions...please tell me where you find the grounding (origin) of the laws of logic. In a purely materialistic universe where all is just "matter in motion" why should these laws exist and what is their origin?

Try not to write a novel; be concise and precise. That's a good start to see what I'm trying to explain.

 

I agree with your description of what logic is - we’re both on the same page there.

What I’m getting from this conversation is that you believe that God gave us this ability - correct? I’m trying to keep this as a basic and simple as possible.

 

Re: “WHY” - I believe they CAN - although it may not be what you believe.

J

 

So - for the sake of argument there is no god - and is being here reasoning is simple coincidence - luck that the stars aligned, life was possible because the earth ended up X distance away from the sun and over a very long time evolution happened and the single cells split and then split again and a fish crawled out of the oceans and millions of years later here we are -

Over that time through repetition we learned to think, to know that if we do A to G, then happens - so many have done this that over that millions of years that it simply IS -

God does not need to be in the picture for this to happen.

J

 

Well...yes in a way. What I'm saying is that logic REFLECTS the mind of God, it's BASED on that. It FLOWS from that. Yes, He did give us a mind able to use these laws and think rationally too.

(This part is a cut/paste but it says what I need to say much better and faster than typing it out)

For the Christian there is an absolute standard for reasoning; we are to pattern our thoughts after God’s. The laws of logic are a reflection of the way God thinks. The law of non-contradiction is not simply one person’s opinion of how we ought to think, rather it stems from God’s self-consistent nature. God cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13), and so, the way God upholds the universe will necessarily be non-contradictory.

Laws of logic are God’s standard for thinking. Since God is an unchanging, sovereign, immaterial Being, the laws of logic are abstract, universal, invariant entities. In other words, they are not made of matter—they apply everywhere and at all times. Laws of logic are contingent upon God’s unchanging nature. And they are necessary for logical reasoning. Thus, rational reasoning would be impossible without the biblical God.

 

With ZERO ill intent - it is ONLY the Christian that believes this.

But either way lol - you and I can go back-and-forth all day long. Have a good day man.

J

 

Ok...good, that's a start. And I appreciate you being civil and keeping this simple without insults.

You said:

Well...that's not going to cut it. I asked about the origin, their foundation. You said that they work and that we recognize that they work, and I agree, but that's not an answer is it?

If you asked how an engine works and I said "it just does" you wouldn't let me off the hook so easy would you?

Can you see how you are not actually accounting for their existence, you are merely positing a theory about how we might have discovered their existence?

For a philosophical system to be taken seriously, it must account for basic human experience, it must answer the big questions.

 

I agree! Certainly....but that doesn't make it not true does it?

I could say that I didn't believe that 2+2 = 4 but my belief or lack thereof doesn't mean anything to the truth or falsehood of the statement.

In any case..if you are done...that's cool. It's a big conversation that's pretty deep and it gets bogged down in having to type out it all.

have a great day.

 

Ok we’ll keep going - although I can’t for too long. Lots to do today.

I did say how they work - how the single cell split, eons went by, Fish swam, continued to evolve, birds split off from fish, fish crawled out of the oceans, barbaric monkeys swans from the treetops.

Eons and eons went by. The stupidest man-things figured out through repetition that if he went around the corner of the cliff that holy shit - “I’m out of the wind and it’s not so cold”. He figured out as he was walking through a field full of tall grasses that A large group of grasses kept his shoulders warm - warmer then if the grasses weren’t against his shoulder.

This drooling idiot - Sitting there banging a rock against another rock for hours on end - Cold and hungry… But after a while the rock he was banging on broke in two -

Dig?

He’s looking stupid lady at these two pieces of rock… Hoping one in each hand. He knows that he doesn’t just have one rock anymore, he understands that he has two pieces now.

Logic is born. She has zero idea what a god even is.

Time passes. Through trial and error and continued evolution the human brain learns more and more things and over the next millions of years it becomes ingrained in them.

Learning by doing. Learning through experience.

Logic.

J

 

It makes it true to YOU - because YOU believe in the almighty creator -

But to anyone else it does not make it true.

 

Ok...so you are saying that the laws of logic don't exist unless men recognized their existence.

True?

There is a real problem there, I hope you recognize it. You are saying that if men never existed then the laws of logic didn't exist; for example the law of non-contradiction which is:

"A can be A and also be Non-A at the same time and in the same sense"

That truth didn't exist before some man recognized it? That would mean that the following statement was true before man was here:

The sun is a giant ball of hydrogen gas in space but it also isn't.


Can you see the problem with your contention that the laws of logic are contingent upon men?

 

You seem to be saying that something can be true for me and not you but that means that there can exist competing and contradictory truths. That's a huge problem, relative truth is self refuting.

 

No problem.

Ok...but how does that work? Explain how the "universe" gives rise to the laws of logic? Be specific. How can a purely material entity that has no intelligence give rise to these immaterial, invariant, universally binding laws?

 

Once again you explained a scenario by which man DISCOVERS these truths. (That A can't be A and non-A at the same time in the same sense which is the law of non-contradiction)

You didn't explain their origin.

The laws of logic existed before men got here that much should be obvious so to say that their origin is that men figured them out or realized them just doesn't cut it.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion; I've said all I can on this subject except this; my hope is that in all this stuff about how the Christian worldview is the logical one to hold, I hope that what you really realize is that all men (myself included) are under God's wrath and will get what they deserve when they die unless they are born again by God's grace. God is a merciful and faithful God, He's mighty to save, please cry out to Him before it's too late.
Have a great day.

 

Touche!

 

What's a "purely material" entity and how do you define intelligence?

 

You must be a professional photographer? The way you capture out of focus license plates is majestic. Where can I see more of your work??

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

Reported you nonce