Baring in mind we are all aware of horrific things that go on in the world, is your god incompetent or sadistic?
Do you still beat your wife? Same kind of question isn't it? What if there is a God or Gods and the message was presented along with free will? Is man's follies the responsibility of a creator?
That's a false equivalence.My question highlights the only two logical outcomes. Your one assumes I'm both married and beat my imaginary wife. Free will has nothing to do with cancer, natural disasters, parasites etc
If they didn't exist, how would we learn? I offered another option, just because you have predetermined yours to be the only answers does not mean it is.
I wasn't aware God offered humanity a perfect world. Interesting that you believe you're entitled to one though.
My God is incompetent. I prayed for 4-to-5 lemons and 8-to-9 limes one time and I got 45 lemons and 89 limes. Fucking idiot. What am I supposed to do with 89 limes? I'm seriously considering Scientology.
That's a false equivalence.My question highlights the only two logical outcomes. Your one assumes I'm both married and beat my imaginary wife. Free will has nothing to do with cancer, natural disasters, parasites etc It's interesting you are so keen to learn when your views are incompatible with science (the foremost method to learn about our reality. You are starting with the prerequisite that there is a god when the default is actually no god. You only believe in a god because you have been told by another human that there is a god and it appeals to your vanity. Your last reply casually skips over the point you quoted, as did your last reply.
Why would a god not want to prevent the deaths of it's living creations? Your god is good and perfect right? So would the good thing to do be preventing babies from having horrific birth defects and dying shortly after birth? Or having a tsunami wipe out thousands of men, women and children? Or the black death? Or cot death? Why set the whole system up so those creations live by eating each other? It's interesting that you assume that I'm the entitled one when you likely believe that you are entitled to an afterlife because of a viewpoint. You people are so vain and self entitled that you believe you are of more value than other living beings, wheres the cat heaven? The mosquito heaven? Why don't lizards go to heaven? According to most religious books you are the center of the universe and there's no mention on life on other planets or in other universes. Your books don't even mention microbiology and pathogens on our own planet so why would you trust ignorance over something that is well understood by humans? Why do you denounce some very well understood science and not medical science? Would you stay at home and prayed rather than going to the hospital when you're seriously ill? ( Obviously the answer is no) Religious people denounce Evolution because their ego does not let them accept we have a common ancestor with apes. You believe in a god because you feel you are so important that there's no way you could possibly just cease to exist and I'm entitled? That's funny Which religion are you? I'd love to ask you some more questions
I find the notion of free will to be somewhat childish of a view in 2017. Clearly many, if not most, people who ever lived had to make choices they rather would not have, but were forced to. Others were never given a choice in the first place, as disease, war, famine, etc wiped them and/or their family out. Anyone who presumes a traditional omnipotent and omniscient god figure, and most on the planet do, should honestly live with the question the OP raised. Is your god sadistic or incompetent? Any third choice will by definition have to come from pure faith. Something along the lines of "I see the misery. I recognize it, and I still choose to think that he who is in control knows this is somehow for the best." This is basically how the majority of the planet "comes to terms" with reality.
Way to generalize and make stupid assumptions, never seen an atheist do that! Without bad there is no good. A perfect world would quickly become a neutral world where everyone ends up unsatisfied. You know nothing about my beliefs beyond that I believe in God and yet you assume all kinds of things. In fact I do believe in an after life for other living beings beyond just humans. When you say "your books" I assume you mean the bible, quran, etc. (religious books in general) don't mention microbiology and pathogens, you know why? Maybe because they were fucking written thousands of years ago before anybody, even pretentious atheists/agnostics had discovered that scientific research. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are in the center of the universe, and if it does I don't care because I don't follow 100% of the bible or take everything in it literally. There are uses of metaphors throughout. I don't denounce lots of science. Evolution is a theory not a proven science, if you think the only reason people don't agree with it is their ego you are not even close to being accurate. I believe in God not only because of faith but because I have experienced things first hand that prove his existence. I've experienced things that first hand prove that fate is real. I don't feel entitled. You clearly do. Your entire post was full to the brim with ignorance and assumptions, extremely common among atheists/agnostics like you who think they're smart when in reality all they do is spew logical fallacies and strawman arguments. The real funny thing is you assuming not only what I believe but why I believe it, and how incredibly far off the mark you are. Yet you think you're dead on. That's funny. I've wasted enough of my time on this. Sad how hostile and ignorant the majority of atheists seem to be. That's fine. God loves you none the less. Maybe one day you will realize that and accept it. I don't care what you believe, I really don't. Believe whatever you want. If you want to be full of hate like you clearly are, that's fine. Go back to making strawman arguments and radical assumptions about me though. Prove me right. I could care less. I'm done. Bye.
Well said @Toke_til_you_choke I do believe in God, although I don't agree with organized religion. I also believe in evolution. There is nothing that states that an all powerful creator could not trigger such an event and even know the outcome. It is pretty amazing how delicate, fragile, and balanced an environment it takes for us to survive.
@toke till you choke I'll have to deconstruct this sentence by sentence as again, you are way off the mark! "Way to generalize and make stupid assumptions, never seen an atheist do that!" ^ I purposely said "it's likely" and similar variations because I was not assuming as you aren't brave enough to be descriptive about what you believe. " Without bad there is no good." ^ Bad and good are human concepts governed by empathy not religion. "A perfect world would quickly become a neutral world where everyone ends up unsatisfied." ^ The definition of neutral would depend on humans having some kind of reference of perfect and imperfect. I'd take a world without brutal baby deaths any day though. "You know nothing about my beliefs beyond that I believe in God and yet you assume all kinds of things." ^ I covered this before so no need for both of us to repeat ourselves. "In fact I do believe in an after life for other living beings beyond just humans." ^ Is there a heaven for ants and where is it? "When you say "your books" I assume you mean the bible, quran, etc. (religious books in general) don't mention microbiology and pathogens, you know why? Maybe because they were fucking written thousands of years ago before anybody, even pretentious atheists/agnostics had discovered that scientific research." ^ Now who's assuming people's beliefs? Both of those books are supposed to be written with direct instruction from a god. So why would a god not include such important information such as this? (which brings us back to my original question doesn't it?). But thanks for the insult, that's very christian of you. "Nowhere in the bible does it say we are in the center of the universe, and if it does I don't care because I don't follow 100% of the bible or take everything in it literally. There are uses of metaphors throughout. I don't denounce lots of science. Evolution is a theory not a proven science, if you think the only reason people don't agree with it is their ego you are not even close to being accurate." ^ The insinuation in the bible is that our immortal souls are very important to god. Why was your god just not aware how vast the rest of the universe he supposedly created was? "I believe in God not only because of faith but because I have experienced things first hand that prove his existence. I've experienced things that first hand prove that fate is real. I don't feel entitled. You clearly do. Your entire post was full to the brim with ignorance and assumptions, extremely common among atheists/agnostics like you who think they're smart when in reality all they do is spew logical fallacies and strawman arguments. The real funny thing is you assuming not only what I believe but why I believe it, and how incredibly far off the mark you are. Yet you think you're dead on. That's funny. ^ So you have said the same thing 3 times now, trying to bulk out your response much? Faith is the thing that fits in to the gap where evidence would otherwise be. Why would you suspend your logical facilities for this one thing alone? If what you are saying is correct you wouldn't be speaking in such general terms and would be able to give examples. "I've wasted enough of my time on this. Sad how hostile and ignorant the majority of atheists seem to be. That's fine. God loves you none the less. Maybe one day you will realize that and accept it. I don't care what you believe, I really don't. Believe whatever you want. If you want to be full of hate like you clearly are, that's fine." ^ I don't believe anything without evidence, it's the key to not believing bullshit. Atheists may come across hostile to you because we are sick of your belief in an invisible friend impacting on our lives! I understood that these stories were absolutely ridiculous at the age of 8, maybe you can will reach that level of logic/reasoning one day. Your god doesn't exist so by definition cannot love anyone. You have been indoctrinated and controlled and you are spewing exactly what you have been told. If you were born in Pakistan do you think you would still be christian? Aren't you lucky you were born in to the "right" religion? "Go back to making strawman arguments and radical assumptions about me though. Prove me right. I could care less. I'm done. Bye." You're very hostile for someone who's so religious. The phrase is "i couldn't care less", silly American. Go read your bible that justifies slavery, stoning kids, beating slaves to death, taking women as sex slaves, war etc. Laters
So is God not wholly good, then? What about heaven/the afterlife--is there suffering there, too? Or free will? Also, while you're criticizes this fella here for his perceived arrogance and hostility are you not aware that you're guilty of doing the exact same thing? Wouldn't hurt to dial back on the zeal a bit.
While what you're saying about religion being a product of ego may be true to an extent (and is certainly true for a great many religious peoples' attitude), it isn't exactly true as a whole. The stories behind many of the world's religions and myths are actually very fascinating, and when trying to understand them it's important to place yourself in the believers' shoes; to non-believers, stories of great floods and creation myths may seem like simple fairytales, but to the religious mind they take on a much greater meaning, which is overflowing with symbolism. And these stories, once understood (either through an anthropological or phenomenological lens), shed a great deal of light on the human condition itself. Also, there's no underestimating the power of the religious experience (whether this experience can be attributed to phycological causes is irrelevant for now).
I don't believe in any religion but the only "religion" that would justify what our world is, is Deism. The belief that a higher power created us but doesn't interact with us in anyway shape or form, meaning that there is no religious scripture to follow for that religion. There was a few deist amongst our founding fathers, It was basically like being atheist back then.
What is 'horrific' but the absence of its opposite? In other words, you cannot have one without the other. It comes down to potential. You have the potential to loving care or hateful indifference. Love is so special because that person chooses freely. Leibniz argues that this is indeed the best possible world, not because it is perfect as we can imagine, but because it has the potential to be what we make it, and the evil around us should cause us to evaluate and correct our ways in effort to realize the maximum goodness possible. In order for there to be a maximum goodness there has to be an equal and opposite maximum evil. The question may be, why do we perceive such things as 'evil' or 'horrible'? Do good and evil inherently exist or are they just human creations? If they are inherent, they come from a higher order, if they are a human creation, humans are finite so their creation is meaningless. You spank your child and expose them to displeasure so they learn from it for a greater purpose, not because you are sadistic (hopefully). Because the finite act of disipline transcends the moment. I think good and evil transcend our reality, and thus, are perfectly reasonable and well within any legitimate concept/character of god.
I agree with you to a certain extent but good and evil are human constructs and since there is zero evidence for any of the 3,000 proposed gods (or anything supernatural for that matter), it is hugely likely there are no gods. Also, I would never spank my kids.... Or give them congenital birth defects or face cancer