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Question about Decarboxylation

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by GrifsPiffs, Mar 23, 2013.

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  1. #1 GrifsPiffs, Mar 23, 2013
    I wanted to make some cannabis tea with coconut oil. Should I decarboxylate the weed before or after mixing it with oil? I think that it should be done before, because the oil binds with the cannabinoids and raises the time/temperature it takes to decarboxylate.

    Is this a good method?
    Grind up into powder
    Place in a sealed glass jar in oven at 145 degrees Celsius for 7 minutes
    Allow whatever vaporized to cool down and condensate
    Pour in enough coconut oil to cover cannabis
    Extract the cannabis into oil by pressing it
    Put sealed glass jar w/ cannabis and oil in boiling water for 5 minutes to extract it better
    Allow whatever vaporized to cool down and condensate again
    Pour tea into glass jar
    Shake vigorously
    Strain

    Appreciate the advice
     
  2. #2 Jojo0420, Mar 23, 2013
    I'm not familiar with Celsius temperatures but, the genral guidelines call for 25 minutes at 220F.
    The oil extraction takes much longer than 5 minutes. More like 2-4 hours for a thorough extraction.
     
  3. #3 GrifsPiffs, Mar 23, 2013
    So cannabinoids don't bind with the fat instantly? They need 2-4 hours to be extracted? What's a good method then?
     
  4. #4 GrifsPiffs, Mar 23, 2013
    Sorry for the callow response. I'm really trying to figure this out...
     
  5. #5 Jojo0420, Mar 24, 2013
  6. #6 GrifsPiffs, Mar 24, 2013
    She doesn't explain why it's done.
    She just says to do 2 cycles of 45 minutes at 220F for the oil extraction.
    Thanks for the help though.
     
  7. #7 Jojo0420, Mar 24, 2013
    What isn't explained? Sorry, I'm missing something.

    If you read enough of her posts you'll see that most of the extraction time, including freezing and heating again, are in an effort to make the cannabanoids bioavailable. Meaning your body can easily digest and use them. Simply extracting into oil isn't enough for your body to use them effienciently.
    Frankly the discussion can get a bit technical, but all the info is here on various threads. I would suggest skimming some more of her posts till you find the info your looking for. BKS is the standard for edibles on GC.
     
  8. #8 GrifsPiffs, Mar 24, 2013
    Sorry about that, I thought I was replying to the thread you linked me to earlier.

    In her guide, BadKat freezes it after the second heating with oil. Then she allows it to thaw and liquefy before straining. I have no idea why she does that. Someone wrote they believe that once the herb is cooked with the oil and lecithin, freezing it is supposed to help the bonds form. I'm not sure about that, but I guess there's no harm in doing so. It would be good to freeze the bud before pouring in the oil though, because that would help the trichomes dissolve better. At least that's what is done for making RSO or BHO with the appropriate solvents. I guess dissolving and binding are different processes altogether.
     
  9. #9 Jojo0420, Mar 24, 2013
    As I mentioned the heating and freezing cycles are to promote bioavailability. You'd be amazed at how small of a fully available dose you need to get the effect you want.
     
  10. #10 GrifsPiffs, Mar 25, 2013
    Damn, so we have the decarboxylation, freezing and heating techniques, mango myrcene, coconut oil, lecithin to promote bioavailability. What else is there? lol
     
  11. #11 PsychedelicSam, Mar 25, 2013

    Stand on your head and whistle Dixie? I'm kidding, of course. There is a lot, isn't there? BKS got all her info during decades in the medical marijuana arena. You can't learn it all in a few days, so don't try. Decarb is simple and hard to mess up. There's a video link in my signature that gives a simple guide that has worked for me at least a hundred times in just the last year. Even if you don't do it my way, check it out and you'll get an idea of what it's about.

    After you decarb, it wouldn't hurt to put your weed in a jar in the freezer for 24 hours. As you mentioned above, that makes the trichomes fall off and they're easier to absorb. Can't hurt. :)
     
  12. #12 GrifsPiffs, Mar 25, 2013
    BadKat says to decarb at 215-220F for 20-30 min.
    This is not enough time to fully decarb, I think z
    Look at this graph.
    It would take 50-60 min. at 215-220F
    http://skunkpharmresearch.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/decarboxylation-graph.pdf
    At around 70% decarb, THC begins to degrade into CBN faster than THCA is decarbed into THC. This is what accounts for the steady decline of %THC after certain periods of time.
    More heat at shorter intervals of time seems to account for a faster rate of decarb from THCA to THC than THC degradation into CBN.
    Notice how the THC percentage peaks at around 70% decarb much higher for the higher temps than the lower ones.

    Another thing I'm wondering is - maybe it shouldn't be fully decarbed before mixing with oil? I think decarb and degradation continues to take place due to the heat during the oil extraction.
     
  13. #13 GrifsPiffs, Mar 25, 2013
    Also, if any cannabinoids were to evaporate from the high heat, they shouldn't escape the container sealed with foil. Then they should condensate after cooling.
     
  14. #14 PsychedelicSam, Mar 26, 2013

    The graph you sited is for a hexane-extracted cannabis product, or in other words, hexane made hash oil like RSO. It is not about raw cannabis and it's not all about heat and time. If you use brick weed, there's no need to decarb at all because it has already naturally decarbed over the course of time. Adding heat of any kind just breaks it down into the lower compounds. Decarb is only needed if your pot is moist, not resinous, moist, like dank kind of moist. I've seen lots of graphs and they all suck. This is not rocket science and can be better accomplished by feel and experience on a case by case basis, each one different. As a whole the industry is still in it's infancy and no real consistency has been set yet, so until that does happen, my advise is to listen to those who've been there instead of untested scientific theory. If you find out the correct answers to your questions, be sure to post them. This is one topic that needs more study. Good luck! :D
     
  15. #15 GrifsPiffs, Mar 26, 2013
    Actually, I think that graph is pretty useful when it comes to cannabis oil. They say that when bubbles stop forming, it's at around 70% decarb, and that's usually when THC starts degrading into CBN faster than THCA is decarbed into THC. When there are no bubbles at all, there is no THCA remaining. They recommend to do 70% for maximum psychoactivity and 100% and beyond for increased sedative effects.

    But yeah, you're right about the actual plant matter. It should take a longer time than just oil if the bud isn't too dry. I'm just thinking that according to the science behind that graph it might make more sense to decarb at higher temps for shorter time to get the most THC. And whatever evaporated would just condensate on the walls or foil. I should test this out once I got my technique down.
     
  16. #16 GrifsPiffs, Mar 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 26, 2013
    By the way, do you know if binding coconut oil with cannabis oil is any different than with plant matter, in terms of temperature and time?

    I think it would be easier to monitor with the oil form. I wouldn't want to boil off the water from the coconut oil though, as the water-soluble terpenoids and flavanoids also have medicinal effects. Then, you could mix it in when all the solvent evaporates off the cannabis oil and watch closely for the formation of bubbles. This techique would enable one to work with larger quantities at once and make sure the end result is of maximum potency.
     
  17. #17 PsychedelicSam, Mar 26, 2013

    If you mean using hash oil in your coconut oil, I understand that it dissolves readily. I know of a couple of people here who swear by it. But I don't have the personal experience. I use a Dragon alcohol extraction as my thc source. It's like using a concentrate without the work of scraping it up. :)
     
  18. #18 indicadom, Mar 26, 2013

    Any concentrate is going to lose terpenes and flavonoids. That is because of the way solvents work, and the fact that some are non-polar, and some are polar. This means an ice water extract will leave some taste, and some smell, and a butane extract will leave some taste and some smell. However, they will never be able to embody the full picture of the plant's profile. An example would be if I had a very lemony strain and I happened to love cooking fish. I could easily grind up fresh buds into the butter, use a double boiler, finish off the butter and make a sauce for the fish. Now how much of that lemon taste will transfer, and how much "plant" taste will transfer? How many people have been willing to experiment with making edibles from buds that have been properly cured for over 3 months?

    There isn't enough marijuana yet to really be able to experiment the way that is necessary to figure out the answers to a lot of these questions. Kind of a rant, but oh well...
     
  19. #19 indicadom, Mar 26, 2013

    You have to drink alcohol though! This is my biggest problem at the moment, although I love smoking, I also like keeping my lungs as healthy as possible, as far as running and exercise. Which is why I have been turning to edibles a lot recently. I wonder though how cannabis could be more easily consumed in the morning and at night? Things like oatmeal, and butter sauces. I don't like the idea of having to eat a brownie every day, or a cookie every day. You know what I mean? Although one shot doesn't seem all that bad, or are you able to drink less than that for a nice buzz?
     
  20. #20 PsychedelicSam, Mar 26, 2013

    With my alcohol tinctures, I only need a few drops so it's not technically a drink since it can be sublingual. But I also use it to make edibles but using a solvent transfer. I transfer the thc from the alcohol extraction to oil/butter/honey/glycerin and other things. The honey/glycerin/agave nectar are all sublingual quality or can be used in coffee or other drinks. The alcohol is evaporated off. :)
     
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