Proof there is no "God"

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by hitmang11, May 10, 2004.

  1. Just read a very interesting website, explaining how there cant be a god as we know it.

    heres the website http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/nogod/no_god.htm

    Here are a couple good points that were made:

    Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.


    The qualities of an omnipotent god
    If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

    He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").

    He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.

    He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.

    He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

    He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?

    The theodicé problem
    We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
    If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?


    Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes
    Another way to disprove the almighty god is that omnipotence leads to
    paradoxes. Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

    Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

    Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.

    If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

    Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void


    My thesis is that people who claim to believe in god do not really do so. They just wish to believe in god. They somehow feel that their lives are meaningless without god, so they choose to close their eyes to evidence against the existence of god. The christian view is well expressed by Cardinal Ratzinger:

    "Religious liberty can not justify freedom for divergence. This freedom does not aim at any freedom relative truth, but concerns the free descicion for a person to, according to his moral inclinations accept the truth." (The times, June 27 1990, p9) [Translated to Swedish in the Swedish version of (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991) and then translated back to english by me]

    It's as clear as it can be! For a christian you accept the "truth" according to your moral, and then have to be strong in your faith to keep your believes. You decide a priori what to believe and then try to convince yourself and others that it is true. But theists don't really believe, because to believe something is to take it for true, and just like in Nazareth's song Sold my soul there is no sign of god in the world.


    I have tried to define the only god that can be philosophically justified and show some examples why this god cannot exist. After reading this document you may object and say that god is beyond human understanding and can't be defined in scientific terms. This is the view of agnosticism.

    If god is so mysterious, how can we know anything about him? Through the Bible? How do we know that the Bible and not the Koran or the Vedha books, for example, are the words of god? (or the bible if you believe in any of the other two books). Considering the cruelties that have been made in the name of god, how do we know that not all religions are made by Satan?

    If there is no way to know this but to trust people who claim they have had "divine experiences" there is no way to tell true from false prophets. One has to give up his free mind and follow the authority of a dictator. Remember also that it is the person making a positive claim who has to prove it.
     
  2. there is a God.....the universe itself........
     
  3. Simple really,I am my own god,the reason for this is if you believe the bible I was made in his image (he's an ugly cunt ?lol),so I am the same as him.
    If on the other hand its false then I'm still my own god because then my fate isn't in anyones hands but mine.
    I guess only time will tell.
     
  4. it sounds like you are all trying to make sense of something that doesnt have to make sense...those theorys are going buy what we think is good and evil and all mighty, but the truth is that we probably dont understand shit. if you look back in time and see that very civilization beleived that what they knew was absolutely correct...the world is flat, earth is the center of the universe etc etc, then what makes everything that we "know for certain" to be true? everything we take to be reality and truth could be the farthest thing from what actually is.
     
  5. The paradoxes aren't really that tricky. The arguments refer to things not representitive of God, by definition they do not exist. I can give you specific arguments to each paradox if you would like but it will take me a while to type them out. I'm not a member of any religion but I do believe that a God must exist. If you have some free time Descartes' Meditations give a clear a precise definition of why God must exist (though I'm sure some people would argue with me). The Bible is a philosophy of God written by some king. We can not know facts about God since we ourselves are not perfect so we cannot have knowledge of a perfect being, however we can have the idea of a perfect being (Anslem used this in his proof of the existance of God, not that I really agree with the argument).
     

  6. as the unitarian universalists believe.




    i say,

    IF there is a "God" it is Everything. EVERYTHING. and so, we are part of everything and thus part of God too.

    But seriously... why do we even need to bother with that ancient creative description for something that was misunderstood?

    let "God" rest in peace. Lets move on.
     
  7. What you people are talking about, to a degree, and should look into, is called the Unconious Collective, or the Universal Mind/Brain.


    Look into it, it's real. It's a proven fact. Not by science but by millions who are either COMPLETELY delusional or absolutely right.

    It's proven by astral projection which is a fact. However there's no way to prove that astral projection is not simply just a part of what our amazing minds can do. It's either an amazing act of forceably leaving your body, or a delusion that the mind creates.

    It's real though, if you've done it.

    There's OBVIOUSLY no "God", as such though. So it's useless arguing whether there is or not. Although I do spend a lot of time doing so.
     
  8. Do you honestly believe we could ever begin to understand the characteristics God has or must have? We are too ignorant, and no where near intelligent enough to begin understanding God. Most peopel precieve God as an almighty being. Some entity. Most give God human attributes in order to "understand" God. God isn't human, so there is the problem. Your points don't prove God's non-existance, but rather our lack of understanding of God.
     
  9. I never understood man kinds need to believe in an omnipotent being that was infinitely better than them just so they can feel like they're not alone
     
  10. Its like a monkey trying to understand an airplane...

    I believe there is a God, but I cant even come close to understanding what "God" is...
     
  11. i have a question. if the argument of "who created God?" is used as proof of there being no God... can the question "who created all the matter in the universe?" be used to disprove evolution? either way you have to believe that something was eternal... either matter, or God, so either way you have to have faith in something. Like it or not.
     
  12. You can't prove that there is no God...that's just idiotic to even attempt to do so because it's all about faith, it's not about logic.
     

  13. No.


    Ofcourse you can't, that's why it's perfect because you don't REALLY have any 100% absolute proof untill you die, and then who cares, you're of no use now because you're dead.

    And although I don't like IGotTheCotton's post at all, I must say that I do believe in things. like I said before, the universal mind. We're all part of it, we're all the same conciouness seperated into different divisions, conensed to a lower frequency of vibration. (All matter is energy condensed to a specific frequency), and we're all made of more than one body compiled together. The physical body, mental, astral.... To seperate them you need to make them have different frequencies. And that happens when you die, and you move on to a different path and eventually go back to the same place in the unconcious collective.
     
  14. you can never prove that god exists.

    you can never prove that god doesn't exists

    so stop worrying about it.
     
  15. He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.

    if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future"

    [endquote]


    i'm gonna capitalize "It" so you all know when i refer to a god

    right there you're kinda contradicting yourself. It would know Its future because it hasn't happened yet and never will because It is timeless. Its actions are not predetermined and does have free will. btw, i really hate the term free will. I feel like it's used in every fucking god argument.
     
  16. Now, YOU'RE really trying to explain something you can't.

    You can't say that, you have no idea how to explain what it's like to be "above" time. But technically, for God to be above time, there wouldn't be future because everything would be "now" for him. But there would be no "Now". It's an abstract concept that someone bound my time and dates could not possibly understand.
     
  17. i'm living in the now. the only reason we measure time is because the world turns (and for increasing productivity, that's another discussion). if the world didn't turn would the human race have ever invented watches? would we ever know what the hell you're talking about when someone tried to explain the concept of time? i'd like to live in a world where no one measured time and just chilled but unfortunately that's an impossibility right now.

    "for God to be above time, there wouldn't be [a] future because everything would be "now" for him."

    uh-huh i agree with you there.
     
  18. the one thing that makes me laugh is this:

    my english teacher(when we studied Greek mythology) was constantly laffing about it(mythology) and saying how its just stories, so bear with me...

    except that Greek mythology was devised to explain things(Mt. Etna in Greek is a volcano and a monster was trapped under there and when it erupted the monster was thrashing in his prison) and everyone accepted it as real....today its just stories

    God explains the creation of the universe, the meaning of life, and good and evil

    ALL THINGS WE DONT KNOW, JUST LIKE THE GREEKS

    will the religions of today become myths?...if you say no, do you truly believe that in 5,000 years they will still be in use

    if a religion becomes obselete, does then does the god(s) die with the religion?
     

  19. We measure time to keep appointments, organizational reasons. You can't say "253 B.C.(E.) when there's no reference point for years, months, days...

    Time is just BASED on the rotation. Not BECAUSE of the rotation.
     
  20. NOT TIME AS IN WATCHES. time as in once something happens it has passed and cannot be undone. Time as in, you smoked you cannot undo smoking for the first time.

    And maybe, just MAYBE god and satan are like matrix: revolutions, satan is just a force to balance out god. God cannot be all powerful because there is satan and visa versa, that is why if they are fighting a war no one can prevail because one cannot exist without the other.... you see what im saying.

    and whoever asked, then who created space..... umm the almighty physics and chemistry.
     
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