Predetermined Life

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Buddy Dink, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. I am in no way a believer in any god or higher being, but I still believe in our lives being predetermined. I was trying to explain this to my friends but I had just dropped acid and only one of my friends was sober.

    Let us start:

    Our universe is governed by some governing force. We translate these forces into mathematical and verbal code that we use to measure the universe. We do not know all of these laws yet, obviously.

    Everyone can agree thus far, correct?

    Because our universe is governed by these forces, everything in the universe happened the way it did. Our galaxy, solar system, and planet formed when they did and where they did because they followed these rules. The emergence of life, in particular human life, happened because of these physical laws. Your birth was caused by your fathers semen and mothers ovum following these forces. The chemistry in your brain is run by these laws, and all of the stimulus you have received since you were an infant have altered you to be the way you are.

    I pretty much mean to say that there is no chance. There is no randomness associated with the universe, it is just such a huge amount of tiny factors, all of which are measurable and are governed by the laws of physics.

    If we knew a way to represent exactly the way the universe works mathematically, we would be able to tell the future, but I don't even think it is possible, and even if it were possible the processing power necessary to make anything useful out of that information will probably never exist or at least not for a very long time.
  2. i gotta say i disagree, our universe is entirely random, just the fact of observing certain particles changes their behavior. radioactive decay for one example is entirely random chance. even if we could understand everything about the universe theres no way we could determine the future. look into quantum physics and such and you'll see what i mean
  3. and if we could look into the the future and see our predetermined life wouldnt we be given a choice to change it?
  4. Neither radioactive decay nor observation of certain particles are completely random. Quantum mechanics is not completely random either. Quantum mechanics is a way for us to be able to measure into account the fact that we don't understand everything. Despite what we may be able to measure, everything still has at least one position in space and time, and perhaps positions in other dimensions we are not yet able to measure.

    Besides the fact that both Relativity and Quantum theory contradict each other on multiple levels, and are both widely accepted, we obviously don't know everything. I am saying that there is some governing force out there, a unifying theory, that we may someday understand.
  5. No, because that observation of the predetermined life would already have been taken into consideration when determining the future. Outside stimulus has a very measurable effect on us. That in combination with your natural brain chemistry is what would make the future measurable.
  6. I actually was almost really close to believing our lives and everything else are pre-destined a while back when I thought about it but now I just think of it as a high thought.
  7. Actually, I believe our modern scientific understanding of quantum mechanics suggests just the opposite. There are no hidden variables. Quantum mechanics IS completely random. See
  8. Yes, everything is predetermined.

    It's the cosmic dance of life unfolding before your eyes.
  9. I don't understand how a flaw in semantics, "something will become something" obviously, validates predetermination. There was just as good of a chance that the one gamete that eventually became you could have been any one out of millions. I think the real question is whether or not that had happened, your self perception and subjective identity would have been determined simply by genetics or something on a higher, more spiritual level.
  10. When you drop a ball, the laws of physics subject it to the forces of gravity, drag, friction, etc. If you had the same conditions at the same moment in time, every time you dropped that ball it would have the same outcome. What makes that scenario different from giving birth? Thoughts and ideas? Decisions?
  11. I would agree with you, but I believe quantum physics has pretty much destroyed determinism. How significant are quantum effects at the macroscopic level? Over a short period of time, incredibly insignificant. But over millions of years? That's not so clear.

    Also, it is indeed definitely impossible to compute the future of the entire universe, since any computer which could do that would require as much computational power as exists in the entire universe. You could maybe compute the future over very small sections of spacetime, though. [edit]: except for quantum effects, of course.
  12. it doesnt matter if everything is predetermined or not. if we could predict the future with 100% accuracy it would make existence pretty damn boring.
  13. I think it definitely does matter. If indeed everything is predetermined (or even if everything except quantum effects are predetermined), how is free will possible? How about moral responsibility?

    This is an important philosophical question, though I do think it can be answered.
  14. A lot of assumptions are made here. Especially this idea of cosmic/absolute/universal "rules". I mean you need a reality and time to determine trends showing you that things happen over and over. A rule only matters when referring to something that occurs over and over. There's a good song by Incubus that explains this:

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  15. I am a very big advocate of free will even though I am starting to believe what I originally posted. The perception of free will might as well be free will. If you, yourself, think you are choosing to do something wrong, then you are, regardless of whether or not you were "predestined" to do that deed.

    Good video you posted by the way.
  16. Here's a simple example of how predetermination is false; the beginning of the universe. Standard cosmological theory states that at one point in the universe, I don't even think "time" is a relevant term here, all energy was condensed into an infinitesimally small singularity. Not only would this singularity of energy have been infinitely tiny, but also infinitely symmetrical. This is in agreement with what you have already stated, that at any level, macroscopic or microscopic, atomic or Planck or string, there is always congruency if there was no chance, and there can be no chance if everything is congruent. This begs the question to be answered, how did we arrive at such an asymmetric state in the universe? Was the deciding error in the chance something that took place before the creation of all that we know? That is impossible, as nothing could have occurred before THE BEGINNING that could have any effect on the world as we perceive it. I think this answers your question; If there is a noticeable or perceivable chance in something we do, then there has always been a chance that it would, or would not. Not that we only, subjectively, perceive that we do, and are false in our perceptions. Perception is reality. :hello:
  17. If you read about M theory, you will understand that there may have been things that influenced our universe before its existence.

    Also, reality is reality, regardless of our perception. The planets, the stars, the galaxies, and the universe would all still exist without us here to perceive it.
  18. if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there, did the tree really fall?

  19. Yes, I am actually kind of tired of that question. Things that are real are measurable. A tree falling in the woods, is measurable. Universes, galaxies, stars, and planets are measurable. God is not measurable.

    You can choose not to believe whatever you wish, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

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