300 ppm 5.5ph clones 500 to 700 ppm 6.0 to 6.3ph veg start at 800 and finish at 1000 ppm 6.3ph flower
[quote name='"masterlights"']thats the prob wit tap.it starts with a decent ppm especially around a city.but you need to have nutes in the water especially with coco bc theres not enough for the plant.I would feed them lightly just try not to go to insane with the ppm since your already at a number with the tap. My hanna only has the 3 readings..ppm/ph/and u/s number thats usually twice the ppm reading.It doesnt have a EC number reading like 1.2 or w/e but it says EC on the front case of the pen[/quote] Just move the decimal point. 1000 is 1.0 EC
SCMC, why go to all that trouble of dialing in specific numbers, dropping EC on transitional periods, etc and then alternate half strength solution? If the feed is dialed in, why cut it in half, what benefit besides saving $ on nutes do you feel that provides?
The alternating thing was suggested to me by a grower from another site who had it suggested to him by someone else from yet another site. I gave it a go and things went well for me so I suggested it to people who are following a grow guide and running coco hydroponically for their first time. At the time i was offering this advice there were a lot of growers over feeding their plants in coco and it was my way of indirectly getting them (and myself at one time) to use less nutrition. The advice I offer always comes with the disclosure that coco is very versatile and works well in many ways. The point of calculations was to ensure a good final ratio of elements if a few products were used to modify the base formula. The half strength was to ensure the balance was maintained when runoff was collected and removed. In the future I would like to take a more stable approach to hydroponic coco with the occasional "kick" when required. Until I have time to dial things in better I cannot speak very specifically but I am hoping to run a few different programs around the same levels to see which does the best. Basically, 3/4 strength most of the time with the occasional full strength boost. But that means dealing with runoff again and this no waste organic kick I am on is just too easy.
Salient question. To which there's no logical answer. People who attempt to feed using these patterns are practicing back-flips before they can walk. Following numbers and regimes instead of following the plant. There are simple easy ways to get your base feeds dialed in. When people advance to the point where they understand the simplicity of the plant, they'll wonder what they were playing at with these bogus regimes. I mean, feeding too strong one go, then too weak the next, so you don't burn the plants?? It's like trying to warm your hands up by putting them in the fire, then pulling them out, then putting them in, then pulling them out.....instead of just holding them in front of it to get warm. People will adopt a more steady approach when they get more experienced, I'm 100% sure of that. At first you think it's complicated. Then you realise you complicated it.
It's never been complicated. I do not understand why anyone would think that doing more than mixing and stirring one thing into water could be complicated. It's honestly one of the easiest things I have ever done. If you understand what you're doing the complexity just melts away as though it were never there. Making cookies is not what I consider to be a complicated process. Flour, butter, eggs, baking powder or soda, sugar, vanilla, and maybe some chocolate chips. Bake at 325 or 350 depending on your elevation. There are several ingredients to make a batch of cookies and factors to consider like greasing a dark pan versus parchment on one of those insulated bottom cookie sheets. Yet, making cookies from all these ingredients is really a fairly simple process when you have done it a few times. We can buy a tube of pre-made cookie dough and slap it down on a disposable aluminum sheet. Or we can make them for ourselves the way we like our cookies. Extra chocolate. Only egg whites, more baking soda. Whatever the case is... We all start with the simplest route and stretch out to tune our tastes. This comparison of cooking to growing is a good example of my journey from simplistic base system to more complex dialed programs. I started simple, Canna nutrients in coco in spring of 2008. Got the filtered water and Cal-Mag thing going. Did pretty good. But I wanted more. I ran the program again, side by side with Sensi Bloom to see which I liked. The Sensi gave me fat buds but not a lot of resin. The Canna did as expected and I was pretty happy. I felt like going back to organics (I started in soil in 2004) so I tried my hand at organics in coco but didn't like my results. So I went back to Canna as my effective base and after a few grows I found a hodgepodge of items I had collected to try out to improve the system. So, in a final effort to utilize what I had left over on the shelf I designed a grow system that depended on the numbers calculated in the solution, and not the brand on the bottle or what company X thought was what my plants wanted. I know what they wanted, so I gave it to them, and it worked. This process, I felt, enlightened me as to what I was feeding and how it didn't matter if I used 1 or 100 products that as long as the calculations and the ratios were good the plants would be happy. We all start in the same place. Tricks help in the beginning. A higher level of understanding what we are adding and why we are adding it takes an approach beyond the simplest of techniques. If you want simple and thoughtless growing adventure where you react rather than plan and think then move into organics. Organics is a no brainer. Hydroponics, despite what you may hear, might actually require the use of your brain from time to time to improve upon a base formula. As I have been pondering the half strength question today I have come to remember where the advice came from. Hydro system users were doing something similar, refilling their reservoirs with a lower strength solution between weekly changes to keep it topped off. Someone took that concept and applied it to coco. Then suggested it to my buddy t0rn, who suggested it to me, and when I tried it out I had a lot of success. So I passed on the information as a tried and true experience. There are many things in this life we cannot comprehend until we experience them for ourselves. I sought out to experience as much as possible rather than ride the "good enough" train. There are many growers here who have benefited from the knowledge and insight they get when they calculate the minimum ppm levels mixed into their solutions. When a deficiency does appear we can reflect on what was fed, and when, and next time around we can be sure to include more of element X before the deficiency is present. The process of dialing in is not a one and done, and sometimes we find techniques that help us succeed as gardeners. To each their own.
You don't have a more complex dialed system. You have a system which was given to you by someone on the internet which was given to him by someone else. It's the opposite of a dialed system. If you'd improved on systems relied on by the likes of heath robinson etc then believe me, people would be talking about you and people would know about you but they don't because you haven't. You talk about riding the "good enough" train, and it's this kind of talk which not only misleads people into believing that simple can't also be the best, but which I find offensive. As though you're achieving a higher level of results than me, or people who literally just kill you stone dead.... I mean seriously, I can link you right now to a grow which you can attempt to mimick, to match, using your detailed regimen.... He uses tomato food from beginning to end and trebles your last yield with plants which look infinitely better. You've got to respect growers like that but you don't, you talk down on them by insinuating their simplistic approach is that of someone happy to just drag their plants up in mediocrity. I'm always open to trying new things and new ideas but first the results have got to sway me that way. I listen to what you say and then I see what you do, and I wonder what advantage you believe you're gaining over people who use simple base systems. To me, good enough is as close to perfect as I can get. Not just some plant dragged over the finish line. I believe in aiming for the top grade of whatever you do, and I know that you can get better results than you are doing with just a basic system because I've seen your plants in the early stage of veg, a stage when every single plant in the room of any moderately experienced gardener should look perfect, but they don't. That, to me, is not good enough. They're results I would not be happy with. In fact I'd feel frustrated if my plants looked like that. So what is "good enough" ? Nobody is saying you should feed one bottle of nutes regardless of results and leave it that way, what they are saying is cannabis is a plant which can be grown to near perfection with a far more simpler approach than what some self proclaimed experts suggest. The cooking analogy is a poor one, because with proper home cooking the results can be taken way beyond what you can get out of a packet. You're not suggesting people make their own nutes from food grade elements from scratch, you are suggesting store bought ready made bottles but in bits and pieces to get results no better than they'd get using a single bottle of a well balanced feed. I don't see the sense in that. Probably because there isn't any.
In fact I'm going to throw down the gauntlet right now. Me and you have argued back and forth many times before, and to be honest it does get boring. What we can do is a side by side grow. Me vs you. No bullshit. Any strain, clones, whatever style or methods you want. I'll use one bottle of food from beginning to end and you've got the perfect opportunity to show that you can take those results one step further. That using a detailed regimen gives significant improvements. In fact, I might even make it a tomato food. It's basically your regime and higher understanding vs ......... tomato food. I'd imagine it'll be a challenge you'll gobble up.
SCMC, Watcher, you both are instrumental in my choice to start growing. I have learned more about coco growing from this site than any other and you two have been a big part of that. I didnt mean to start anything with that question but was curious if you saw improved results with the changes and half strength. It is a curious point to drive them full power but then allow them to crave more on the next go around while allowing any builtup nutrients to be used, although I couldnt help but chuckle to Watcher's fire analogy. AskEd does something different as well: "Base Water: 3 gal - tap 30 ml - Calmag 30 ml - Pro-Tekt (ends up about 700ppm) Grow-30: 3 gal - tap 30 ml - Grow (ends up about 700ppm) Grow-60: 3 gal - tap 60 ml - Grow (ends up about 970ppm) Bloom: 3 gal - tap 70 ml - Bloom (ends up about 1050ppm) Ripe: 3 gal - tap 70 ml - Ripe (ends up about 1050ppm) Coco Mix: Pure coco, no amendments. Currently I'm using Botanicare CocoGro (bricks), but I'm not brand loyal to be honest but my store has these always and they are cheap. Plus the nutes are Botanicare so seems like a good match. Now I know in my guide I promote perlite & dolomite, and I stand by it - it's solid and I use that for my veggies with great success, but for MJ I've switched to just pure coco. Primarily because I've gotten lazy and it's a lot easier to just fill the container and rock it! Nutes: I used to mix all the nutes and supplements together in the water, nutes + calmag + protekt, but I split them up now. So you'll see the Base Water has the calmag + protekt. This makes for lower ppm water and the plants really love that. Water: Probably the best thing I've done to help with calcium is to switch to tap water. If your ppm is <300 out of the tap, I would suggest using this. I don't aerate or let the chlorine burn off over night or anything like that, unless it's an organic grow I don't think this matters (with my local tap anyways). I fill my bucket, mix in whatever and feed immediately. Feeding - Seedling & Veg: When the seed breaks ground, I usually give Base Water once or twice. One week after breaking ground (usually one or two leafsets at this point) I start with the Grow-30. The plant is not feeding yet, just preparing the coco for when it does. At this stage I water the plants every 3 days whether they need it or not, just enough for runoff to occur (if handwatering). If the plant is dark green, I'll give it Base Water, if it looks a little pale, then Grow-30. *This is where the green or black thumb comes in LOL Feeding - The Flip: When I throw the plants into flowering (usually after week 3 or 4 of veg), if they are big and/or fast growing I'll switch them to Grow-60. I normally transplant at this point unless I'm in a 3 gal already then there's no need. If transplanting, I will give them Base Water the first time and get the roots searching for some food. Feeding - Flowering: I keep giving them grow nutes until I call first bud, usually about 3 weeks after flipping to 12/12. Then I switch them to Bloom. At this stage I water the plants every 2 days whether they need it or not, just enough for runoff to occur (if handwatering). If the plant is dark green, I'll give it Base Water, if it looks a little pale, then Bloom. If I can't decide, then I default to Bloom. If it's been over a week or two since Base Water, then I'll give them that one round even if they look hungry (the calmag blast helps with feeding). If the plant has some kind of deficiency, I'll feed it daily with Bloom until it looks better. With low ppm's it's hard to burn in coco, even when you try LOL Feeding - Late Flowering: Sometime around week 5 of flowering I'll switch to Ripe. This is when the plant will 'start it's descent' as I call it, funky leaf edges, yellowing, dying leaves all start in this stage. The low N of ripe helps that process LOL At this stage I water the plants every 2 days whether they need it or not, just enough for runoff to occur (if handwatering). If the plant is dark green, I'll give it Base Water, if it looks a little pale, then Ripe. If I can't decide, then I default to Ripe. If it's been over a week since Base Water, then I'll give them that one round. This is a great time to add any liquid carbs to the Base Water. I really don't use these but a lot of peeps swear by them. A lot of times the plants will slow their intake at this point, I'll switch them to every 3 days if that seems to be the case with any plant. Flushing: I can not stress enough the importance of flushing when using so much nutes/frequency. I flush every 3 weeks. Period! The plants look great when I do, if I wait 4 weeks then I'll see slight signs of damage, and of course it's too late at that point and the damage is permanent. I flush with straight tap water, no anything added to it. Many argue that this can stress the coco/plant unless you add some nutes, but I have never really seen this be the case in my experience with tap water. RO - maybe... I think it's a great idea to feed the plant after a flush, even base water is good, but I haven't had any problems just letting them run the course with nothing added. I will usually stick to Base Water when the plant is a week out from harvest. ==================================== Well I hope that makes sense, in my mind it's super simple compared to other regiments I've seen (and tried!). My goal is to minimize every step to it's basics and enhance only if needed. So far this works really well for me, at least that what the plants have said" You both know certainly more than me and are well respected members here. No point in going back and forth as you just have two different points of view. Chillax brothers!
I am chillaxed hombre. You can choose to listen to him or ignore him. I find that he hasn't actually participated in the theme of the thread and posted relevant information, like ppm levels.
Like I say, the actual results don't back up the claims. If you are happy then fair enough, follow your strategy and continue with it. But those pictures prove that whilst studying your ppms etc etc might pass a bit of your time and give you a side interest of sorts, they in no way relate to a better final product. If they were my plants, I'd be looking for ways to improve.
Don't flatter yourself brother, I post my opinions and that's it. I'm chilled out dude. I just call it how I see it, and you help me with pictures. I want to let everyone know hw easy growing is, and I also want to make it clear that you will not get better results complicating things by measuring individual elements etc, which I think is pertinent to the thread actually. You talk about me trolling you, but what I post is merely a response to your own version of underhanded trolling, the kind of stuff mods maybe can't pick up on. Other than that I could care less what you say or do. You talk about using your brain, and thoughtless growing... all references to a style which people such as myself have used to gain results which, based on what you're showing, you can only aspire to. Nothing nasty about that dude, it's just that the truth is sometimes harsh. That's all.
Oh and by the way, trolling would be sending pms to someone which they don't need or want. So keep those to yourself in future please and we'll be cool.
Looks like someone hasn't been using the "ignore" feature. I have better things to do than babysit. Please don't derail this thread with petty attacks and other BS, Chunk
Ed's advice in that thread is solid. That little run down in that post you quoted is close to what I do myself. It's straight forward and sensible and relies on the basic guide of the plant, what some people call `reading the plant`. What you've got to remember is cannabis is not a fussy eater and takes from a wide range of elements, so understanding and focusing on the basics of hunger and overfeeding rather than trying to push any pre-set ideas about nutrient regimes will always reflect in better results. Far as the stuff between me and scmc is concerned, like I say, I'm cool. It's not him I'm concerned with, it's the new growers who look for people to listen to. People can be swayed by the idea that the more complex the advice/program/regime the better the results. What I know is that it's not true and that cannabis has a certain level it can reach where it's close to 100% and that often you find that growers who complicate it don't get near that.
See here I would say, wow, those are pretty high ppm's. I mean, I did break 1000ppm on my heavier feeders for a week or so but that was rough. Maybe he is running a 0.7 conversion and the EC levels are actually more mild than they would be on a 0.5 conversion. I see that AskEd is running a base water, so lets see how that comes into play with the high strength CNS17 mixes. Ed knows that his solution is pretty strong. He also knows that he is feeding the coco first and the plant is then feeding from the coco second. So, I see this as a charging of the media and watching to see evidence in the plant when he hits that mark. Incorporating the Micro dominant base water, which is actually a no P solution, still nets a solid 60+ppm of Nitrogen and Potassium plus all the cal-mag and silicon and the tap. In essence, it is a 1/2 strength solution without Phosphorus. This is a similar methodology to the 50/50 method, except I am keeping my P in the solution and working on an alternating schedule. This schedule is not concrete in the same way Ed's is also not concrete. I have fed 3-4 days in a row at my discretion while responding to a shortage in veg. Alternating high and mid strength for me is more of a concept than a Law and it appears to me that AskEd has found some success in an offshoot of this application as well. Here is a method that I am interested to try out. With a transplant I am usually using my normal strength solution and things tend to go pretty well. There have been yellowed leaves at the base of my plant many times and I have always assumed this to be the plant requiring the new elements for root growth in the somewhat undercharged fresh coco. Maybe Ed is on to something with this no P thing? This is the part that I like because there are just so many ways to grow in coco and Ed just lays it out the way he likes to do it. Some people prefer to water daily, like myself. So I use less coco and more aeration material. Some people prefer to water every 3 days, so they use larger containers that can hold more solution. While I may think this is a crazy amount of food for weeks 3-5 from 12/12 (and as many of you would call week 1 of flowering) it works for Ed and be damned if he's not going to do what his eyes and gut tell him to, I imagine. And I would be remiss to tell him to do otherwise. This part I found kinda funny. 1000ppm is high to me. But maybe it's on a 0.7 scale. He's dead right though. What we can take away from this is that even Ed flushes his plants on a schedule. Every 3 weeks they get all that build up flushed on out of them. While I don't recommend regular flushes I have been known to suggest ample runoff. Which Ed doesn't. So that's probably the trade off when working with stronger nutrient solutions offset with mild ones. Either more runoff regularly, or periodic flushes. And those two bits of advice are all over coco forums as far as the internet can see. Ed found a quality nutrient program CNS17 and he found a way to use it effectively in his own garden. He is a very well respected, and very talented, cannabis grower. This doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to grow, just that it's what his plants like, and this way works best for him. I completely respect that and I welcome people to try to mimic Ed. Remember... If hitting the perfect NPK from start to finish without buildup or runoff were easy in soilless hydroponics don't you think that there would be more people doing it? Threads like this one are invaluable to the coco community at large and serve as a wonderful platform for us to share our measurements, our successes, and our experiences. So that one day we can all dial it in. Kudos.
i dont understand how all of this has become so scientific were dope growers, not scientists/botanists look at your nutrient manufactuers suggested feeding rates apply that to your plants WATCH your plants, if tips burn, back off the nutes a little bit WATCH your plants, if they seem hungry/losing color, up the nutes a little bit youll find that happy median eventually trial and error......trial and error
Exactly. This is a fuckin simple plant. You need to know when it looks hungry and when it looks overfed... and that, apart from just a couple of little details, is really about it. Anyone who tries to make this into a science isn't helping the community in any way because they're treating cannabis like something it's not. It's a basic weed with basic needs and almost every time when people complicate and try to intervene to challenge the facts of nature, they invariably find they suffer more problems than they find answers. Make no mistake, this is no Michelangelo work... you can achieve nigh on perfection with this plant if you follow basic ground rules. It's not hard and it's not some impossible aspiration. When someone achieves near perfect results with the most basic approach, you know that right there is a simple plan to grow if you treat it right. And when someone else complicates their schedule by reading and measuring and analysing and then achieves results which are not as good, then you just have to let them learn the hard way.
1627 when Francis Bacon postulated the concept of growing without dirt. It pretty much started with science and depends on science at it's core to improve upon nature. No one is going to disagree with watching the plants, but you can also watch your numbers. The two are not mutually exclusive. As with anything in life you choose how to understand what you're doing. Nutrition Or if you're feeling brave: Plant nutrition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Calling us "dope" growers carries a connotation to it. Many of us produce what we consider a medicine that helps people, or work in communities that do Welcome to WAMM.org | The Wo/Men's Alliance for Medical Marijuana and are filled of people who are very much not dopes.