[quote name='"SoooHaggard"'] I searched this topic @ scrius scientific search engine, and holy shit. I would check it out if I were you.[/quote] Thank you for the heads up! What exactly did you search for on scirus? That way i get the same results as you
[quote name='"SeanDawg"'] Thank you for the heads up! What exactly did you search for on scirus? That way i get the same results as you [/quote] Flowering hormones, I put a lot of the sites in my Pocket ( read it later ) account haven't found the time. Let me know if anything stands out.
Now you're talking man! Any new research you ferret out would be nice to read. There are substances that have been developed that do incite the growth, or, suppress the growth (flowering et al). But these synthesized substances is what starts a molecular nuclear battle where the hormones are stimulated (or suppressed) in overdrive mode and growth is substantially increased. I'm just curious if on the 'average grow' we undertake if there are opportunities we are missing out on to tweak a few things to stimulate the natural production of specific hormones.
Ok so it's pretty obvious that we don't want synthesized plant hormones. So I'm assuming that you're looking for plant sources that we can create a botanical tea from and extract the hormones in addition to the nutrients? I know we have a bunch of different known plant species (in GC i mean) that already respond to the request we are looking at. Plants like: Alfalfa Kelp Aloe Willow Shoots Coconut (juice) Bananas (green) Papaya's (green, Is any one catching the trend here?) But I'm assuming your looking for additional sources other than those few. Am I right? What comes to your mind? and What methods for extraction do you propose?
[quote name='"SeanDawg"'] Ok so it's pretty obvious that we don't want synthesized plant hormones. So I'm assuming that you're looking for plant sources that we can create a botanical tea from and extract the hormones in addition to the nutrients? I know we have a bunch of different known plant species (in GC i mean) that already respond to the request we are looking at. Plants like: Alfalfa Kelp Aloe Coconut (juice) Bananas (green) Papaya's (green, Is any one catching the trend here?) But I'm assuming your looking for additional sources other than those few. Am I right? What comes to your mind? and What methods for extraction do you propose?[/quote] This is what I am wondering myself. The Biology of Flowering stated that they found the highest ppm of auxins in the growing tips of plants. Could this be why biodynamic teas work so well when you isolate each part of the plant?
I like your stye SH It's obvious you can count because you have no problem putting Two and Two together Some people just cant figure out seemingly simple things lol
[quote name='"SeanDawg"']I like your stye SH It's obvious you can count because you have no problem putting Two and Two together Some people just cant figure out seemingly simple things lol[/quote] ...I learned from sesame street..... hahaha So do you think we already have access to these hormones and maybe we just aren't applying them correctly? That book also showed how certains hormones inhibited the release and use of auxins. So that could be why people don't seem to get such great results with combo teas instead of single ingredients. My 2cents at least.
I think that when you mean we aren't applying them correctly you mean other newbs lol (no offence, just couldnt think of it any other way). Where as most of the veteran organic growers around here know how to make a good botanical tea. Or a "Natural Farming" ferment. Where as newer growers arent properly experienced in making these type of concoctions yet... That makes sense, But the plant materials taken at the right phases of growth (like young green fruits) will have higher concentrations of Shooting, and budding / flowering inducing hormones than taken at the wrong stages. does that make any sense? Like this, you wouldn't take adrenalin when you want to take a nap right? Just like you wouldnt want to harvest a dying over ripe banana to ferment for its hormones. You want to harvest the banana young and green, when its plant phase is still pushing huge amounts of plant hormones to help induce much bigger and larger fruit. Also you want to ensure that the plant that you choose to harvest from is healthy also. If its a green banana off of a sickly malnourished tree It'll also have less of those flowering hormones than a strong healthy tree. I hope i dont sound like im ranting. And if some one else has something better to offer. please jump in...
SD If I'm reading you correctly I understand about harvesting donor material at different stages of growth as a means to isolate a particular desired trait or offering that the material offers at a particular stage of growth. Quite brilliant! And we are tracking correctly in that my Q relates specifically to hormonal stimulation versus synthetic hormonal supplementation. That said, are you suggesting that if auxin, for example, were a desired hormone we wanted to apply in a drench to our soil that the soil root would take up the hormone in solution? That's interesting and I don't doubt that it can occur. IDK, perhaps this topic isn't all that worthy if it is not possible to stimulate the production of a desired hormone or safely assume extraction of a desired hormone via an FPE.
Oh on the contraire mon frere. lol Just a simple BSP Ferment more than proves the effectiveness of this technique. All parts of the ferment are used in mind with flowering: Banana (green) - With the thought of producing lots of large fruits Squash (green) - Very Large fruits Papaya (green) - Flavorful fruits I have used that ferment with good flowering results. Keep in mind that i said "good" flowering results. meaning, better than a baseline but nothing too crazy. I have then created a second BSP ferment with the Addition of a native brown seaweed in my area (to replicate kelp meal). With the thought of the hormones produced from the seaweed would help to induce shooting and flowering properties. The results from this ferment were almost terrifying in extremely short periods of time. Using this by means of foliar application. I have had results so extreme that i became scared of continual use and had to discontinue the use due to over growth in a stretching / flowering phase. Two examples: 1.) Kona gold Considered a mediocre, strong sativa plant. I put three into a single pot at about 1/3 the size of what i would normally veg them out to be. Lets say they were approximately a foot tall or so. After a week or two of off and on spray application, all three of these plants exploded to easily 3x time their size when i first transplanted into the flowering room. I have since stopped the use of the spray with fear that they will grow too close to the light and burn the colas. 2.) Super Lemon Haze Easily my favorite strain so partake in but easily the strain that i hate most to grow. so bad that I have previously considered taking out of the "grow rotation". Since putting into the flowering room and started applying my foliar ferment. She has shot up in growth like she has never done before. I MEAN NEVER!!! This thing is so huge Its top cola is slightly above the hood of the light. And im going to have to tie it down somehow to get it to "see the light". Again, I had to stop using the spray. So yeah, It works! Just watch out how you release this beast! because you do not want it going wild lmao.
That's pretty kewl thinking there Sean. Now the question that pops in my noodle is since you're seeing great results with foliar, do you think that a simple ferment brew is what is extracting those hormones? Obviously, but dillution in solution and then applied foliar with those results indicates that whatever is in the solution is being absorbed and used immediately. Pretty neat. I would be particularly interested in increasing bud density. The bananna, papaya, and squash is your favorite mixture eh?
SD Are you referring to the Bionutes such as the ones Gil C. Uses? Just wondering if you add any kind of a lacto culture during your fermentation.
Foliar application for immediate results is a yes! I've also tried soil drenches with the simple BSP ferment and had very little if any noticeable results at all. I think the nutrients need to be further cycled for them to be effective. Since doing that, i came to the conclusion that any type of soil drench feed method would be a no go for my style. I only "feed" by means of foliar application now. I have tried other types of ferments substituting plant materials to achieve "better" results. Thinking before that it was more the supplied nutrients rather than the hormones of the plants. I tried using cucumber, beets, soursop, and a whole bunch of different types of plant material to create a "more effective" foliar spray. All of those different plant materials were researched with intent of having much much higher nutritional concentrations than those from BSP. Yet they had no where near the effectiveness of the BSP. Not to say that other methods didnt have effect. But nothing came even close to what I am currently using now. BSP + Kelp (or in my case native seaweed). This particular combination has become so fantastic in regards to flowering results that I wont even consider using anything else. In regards to bud density. Even that has been dramatically increased. Just in case I didn't mention it earlier. The only thing I regret to inform you of is that I haven't made any uniform measurements of with and without the spray. But by visual assessment I can say, It is truly amazing. Now I'm curious, when creating this thread, what did you have in mind? Botanical teas? What kinds of plants were you planning on using? Or did you have something totally off the wall from what I've been sharing? Yes! I know LD likes his botanical teas over these types of ferments because the teas have compounds that aren't yet broken down yet in a tea rather than in a ferment. But Using the Lacto culture to ferment the material it makes for a two sided attack or three rather. 1.) the nutrient of the fermented materials 2.) the hormones not yet lost in the ferment 3.) the added bonus and protection by the live bacteria protecting from pathogenic microbe take over. Which in turn also increases the SAR of the plant it's self! So everyone else can jump on the botanical tea train. As for me I'll continue to go left while everyone else goes right.
I think what you've provided herein is pretty cogent and succinct. I like it! In my OP what I was wondering is, is there a way to stimulate the internal production of A single hormone versus that of stimulating ALL plant hormones or versus that of applying a particular hormone such as that which might be derived from an FPE. Think of it this way. I'm sad. My wife makes me laugh. My brain releases endorphins. Now I feel better. Taking that same concept, internal hormone production through stimulation, is there a way to "tickle our plants" to have them produce more of one hormone over that of another. When a plant part starts dying off the plant produces absisic acid to sever the defaulted plant part. When the growing tip is no longer THE main growing tip the plant produces auxin in the roots and transports it to the next lowest dominant tip so that it now becomes THE dominant tip. Am I making sense here? There are nuclear reactions (literally) going on at a cellular level in a growing plant. The physiology and metabolism that occurs is fascinating and producing that which the plants need. So if GBA is what I want more of the plant to have what can I do as the manager of the plant to stimulate more GBA production without me having to add a synthesized product or adding an FPE? I just want to stimulate the plant to produce more itself, not add anything to it. Hey, I've been rightly accused of some very "esoteric thought processes" in The City on more than one occasion. I can wear that label comfortably. I'm good with that. This just may be another case of me doing so. I even went so far one time to suggest to spacesmunkies that it might be possible to increase trichome production just by poking holes in leaf and stem material with a needle such as to simulate a "sucking insect" in order for the plant to produces more trichomes to protect itself. We'd have to ask munkiemeister how that worked out. But the point in attempting the hypothesis was to try and force the plant itself to produce more trichomes in an attempt to trip that trigger by causing an injury to the plant that would signal to the plant "do something now". Me? It's way over my head or at least up to my nostrils. However, there are only 5 known plant hormones (six depending on who's research one reads), and I'm only interesed in two; GBA and cytokinin. Auxin I can regulate by manipulating the growing canopy. GBA, I don't know how to stimulate that but it's job is most pronouced for growth and flowering. Cytokinin is used to promote cell division (read that as 'growth') which will help to produce more flowering sites. I don't want ABA produced extraordinarly because that will result in plant death. Same with ethylene. I don't want that one either. GBA and cytokinin hormone production. That's what I'm after. The question is, can we make our plants "laugh" on queue to produce more of one hormone over that of the others without applying a third-party, synthesized, hormonal application of "something". I simply want the plant itself to receive the signal "Capt'n. We need more GBA. Stoke up the boilers, it's full steam ahead". Or sumpin like that. It's ok if you say something like, "Possuum! You're out of your phrigging mind, if you even had one at some point in your life. Quit smokin' so much herb mahn". EDIT: Quite by accident I just stumbled on this very subject in the oft referenced material Teaming with Microbes. Messrs Lowenthal and Lewis proclaim on page 130 of TwM that rhizobacteria can and do produce plant hormones specifically GBA and cytokinin. So now we not only have the term Plant Growth Regulator (PGR) but we also now have the term Plant Growth-Promoting Bacteria PGPR). Nice! But once again, we're Teaming with Microbes and to that end I guess we just need to ensure we have a healthy soil. Thanks for the dialog SeanDawg. Very collegiate and stimulating. Thank you.
SeanDawg, I had the same results with the soil drench BSP. I'm going to give the foliar a try. What are you doing differently from Gil's method when making your BSP?
First off Poss Wow! Just reading that was a thrill! Im so thankful for you, for you make me feel "normal" lol. You are not crazy at all my friend! And if you are don't worry about it, I'm right there with you lol. Quickly getting back to the matter at hand. There is no real way to trigger these hormones without doing something (at least that modern science knows of.) According to this page without "adding" anything there are small things that we can do to help affect the triggering of these specific hormones. Basically saying how light, and temperature can induce flowering. Great news!!! Problem is, is that we already knew that. And i dont think it still has anything to do with what you really had in mind. I think at this point we've come to the conclusion that there is nothing more that science knows of that we can do to help stimulate production of hormones in our plants. So......... You are going to have to take your scientific studies and put them to work. Cut em up Possuum! Put it under the scope n figure this stuff out! Then I'll post it on GC and everyone will think im a genius! lmao. 1.) I shred all the materials. 2.) Add the seaweed. (also put into a blender) 3.) Add sugar (or molasses) 4.) Add previously cultured Lacto bacillus (I take my lacto culture, put 6 oz. into a quart jar. add about 6 oz. of molasses and let it sit for about a week to multiply. I know it's ready when I can visually see bacterial colonization on the top with the naked eye.) Nothing really too different. Mainly just the addition of the native seaweed makes a huge difference. That and maybe foliar application. I hope that helps. Also, did you find any native seaweed species in your area that fit your need?
I'll be foliar feeding with the BSP. Seaweed and kelp. It's one of the many areas where I greatly need educate myself. Thank you guys for a great thread!
[quote name='"StickyFiskers"']I'll be foliar feeding with the BSP. Seaweed and kelp. It's one of the many areas where I greatly need educate myself. Thank you guys for a great thread![/quote] Sticky http://www.acresusa.com/books/closeup.asp?prodid=83&catid=4&pcid=2 That book is probably the only reference that you'll need for kelp. That site is easily cheapest! Any where else can cost a few times more! SD
Bump again! Possuum, any new details on the hunt to stimulate these hormones or are we still searching? BTW i still haven't read the 438 different links pertaining to PGRs n such so if I've missed something please be easy on me.
For now my head hurts from reading. Think for now I'm gonna just go with the microbes. According to Messr's Lewis and Lowenfel the microbes produces specifically GBA and cytokinin. So, for those two hormones we'll let the microbes decide. Kinda already covered auxin and ABA. On the subject of ABA, and this is my personal belief with no basis in science (read that as 'stoner science'), when I witness a yellowing or otherwise unhealthy leaf during flower - SNIP - off it comes. This is in a 'stoner effort' to hasten the production of ABA and just get it out of the way or stop it in its tracks. My bro-n-law tells me that the way to make a hormone is simple; "Don't pay her!" BaddaBoomBadaBing