ph down vs aluminium sulfate

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by Laucass83, Dec 30, 2022.

  1. This is almost 3 years of no-till, re-amending soil before each new transplant. I am seeing these signs of pH going out of control: nothing to be surprised of, I have been giving straight tap water almost all the time. In winter, pH rises, and today tested at over 8,7.

    First reflex was to add a drop of pH down (acid phosphoric) to lower pH. But I also have aluminium sulfate that I use outside in summer for my hydrangea. In a flower bed, I would sprinkle the top layer with a handful when I see the sharp blue colour turning green. But in a container, to lower the pH of a point for optimal nute absobtion seems like a risky gamble.

    What would you use or recomand, to lower pH in living soil? How to gauge aluminium sulfate? If I am using K sulfate as a part of potassium supply, am I risking an excess of sulfure, leading to other problems?

    Thanks! Happy new year!

    IMG_3135.JPG IMG_3140.JPG IMG_3139.JPG IMG_3136.JPG
     
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  2. I also posted a thread about lowering our pH when recycling our medium a few days ago. I have discovered that plain old peat moss seems to effectively lower my medium pH. As for aluminum sulfate I have zero experience.
     
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  3. TimJ, what a shame I got too lazy to scroll down and found your thread before you flagged it to me! I will go read it right away. Peat moss. Genuis!
     
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  4. I know peat lowers pH, but it takes a while. Doesn't regular compost also drop the pH?
    I read this article last month (linked). Thing is, its not about cannabis, but some plant called cyclamen, but there is great info on Ammonium Sulfate, hence I saved the page.
    I would be very careful using AS.
     
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  5. I'm using ammonium sulfate to control poison ivy. It supposedly works by lowering the pH of the soil the roots live in. So far it seems to have them die back. I'll know how it works in the spring if it comes back. I haven't found anything to kill it yet.
     
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  6. @trojangrower, generally speaking compost will have a neutral pH or be on the alkaline side. Unless you're making your compost with sawdust or wood chips as they tend to create a more fungal dominant compost. Bacteria dominant compost and or hot composting tends to have a neutral or higher pH based upon the inputs used.
     
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  7. I would carefully spray it with 2-4-D. Probably needs a few repeats? idk. I don't mind using glyphosate (Roundup), just against it being used in our food production (ie. spraying mass crops with roundup and leave those resistant crops absorb the shit out of it). But for proper usage, I think its ok.
    See, I was under the impression that organic acids are produced by the bacterial strains, which in turn drops the pH (see this article, nice info on reagents).

    tbh, I would just use phosphoric acid and be done with it. I've written up on this kinda problem before:
    The Fast and Furious Flush'o'matic
    although this method was never intended for living soil, I imagine you could do the same thing, given you are potted up in air tight containers, otherwise the long ass flush take a few days. I'd also suggest using an organic tea instead of the chemical nutrients that I used in that linked method. Building a similar vacuum manifold is very much worth the time, even if you hardly use it.

    Continuous addition of a fertigation/water-buffer solution with a lower pH (say 5.6 for example) should eventually (help to) neutralize the alkali, or at least mitigate the problem somewhat.

    Also, consider the following:
    upload_2022-12-30_20-42-20.png

    I don't grow cannabis organically, but I do try with the vegetable garden outside. This last spring, I added a bunch of elemental sulfur to help drive down the pH of the soil. But this will take time, and idk if I added enough. Ultimately, the sulfur will get hydrated and turn into a sulfuric acid, which essentially is just adding pH down (ie. phosphoric acid). In a large garden area, I would consider ammonium sulfate.

    edit: from the above linked article, "When using sulfur for changing soil pH, be aware that the acidifying effect depends on soil bacteria (thiobacillius), which oxidize the sulfur and release dilute sulfuric acid into the soil over a period of weeks to months". Shows you how much I know lol
     
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  8. Tim. For the poison ivy problem, try the gasoline and a match method!

    B61
     
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  9. #9 Laucass83, Dec 31, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
    It is always fun to see all the great ideas you have reading this forum. Trojan's superflush vaccum is great, but not for me. I am only using large fabric containers. And flushing living soil, means the end of life in the soil so I'l skip this one.
    My concern about using phosphoric acid (pH down) is to mess up with the symbiotic fungi that harvest the phosphore, making it in an absorbable form for the roots. If I supply phosphoric acid (0-54-0) on a daily basis, will this be harmful for the soil? I still need a temporary fix before harvest.
     
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  10. Man, I battled high soil pH for quite a spell due to poor well water. For me it’s a strict regimen of :
    50/50 RO to well water
    Citric acid to lower pH if necessary

    Lately, I have been using more compost topdress than dry amendments too.
    Seems to be working, pH tests on a roomful of beds had them all hanging between 6.5-6.7.
     
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  11. #11 TimJ, Dec 31, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
    I've been adjusting my water down to 6.5 pH using a comfrey and nettle tea I made over the summer. It only takes a few ounces per gallon of water to drop my pH from 8.3 to 6.5. I also use citric acid when I don't have a tea available.
     
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  12. I noticed that aluminum and ammonia sulfate were used interchangeably or just plain got mixed up. They are two different materials.

    Phosphoric acid or high dosing P will harm mycorrhizae fungi.

    Elemental sulfur takes forever and a day to work. Definitely zip it through a coffee grinder to reduce the mesh size if you take this route. I didn’t and could still see yellow chunks over a year later. Aluminum sulfate is so strong I didn’t want to try it even in 500g beds.

    Iron sulfate reacts in 2-6 weeks and it’s not as strong as sulfur. Could be great to fine tune things if peat moss isn’t enough. I have also found that leaving the soil outside exposed to the rain also helps.

    You mentioned a pH of 8.7 - is this your water source? The plants honestly don’t look like they are growing in soil w a pH that high. Above about 7.5pH is when issues arise - mainly iron and P getting locked out of soil solution.
    RD
     
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  13. i also use it outside , but i also wouldnt use it in containers , i know you dont lie using peat moss but that is the best method in my opinion
     
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  14. builds that organic matter also
    more often than not a abundance of organic matter will prevent many problems and the water issue is buffered with the use of nature.
    not a scientist here , just a dude that loves growing, so dont crash on the old bro science gig to much on e hahahah
    my best way to tell how well my soil is , if i have a squirrel bury a dang acorn and in 2 weeks i have a tree , my soil is alkaline just right and neutral you can grow some fine grass or turf as the new wave call it
    if my soil is growing clover it is acidic and grows the finest pine trees money can buy hahahh
    HEY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU ALL MAY YOU ALL HAVE A VERY BLESSED 2023
     
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  15. can you start comfrey in winter months, are winter is ,mild, my comfrey just couldnt get going in the summer , all 4 just died onme
     
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  16. Thanks for the post RD. It's dizzying posting the same information over and over again. I did notice aluminum sulfate referred to by Laucass83 and ammonium sulfate in a response by trojangrower. As for the rest of your post I'd agree with everything you stated. Much of it I learned from knowledgeable folks like yourself.
     
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  17. The learning curve on this one was costly for me. Easily the worst problem I’ve encountered.
    RD
     
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  18. I'm sure you can. I can go outside now, after this warm snap and grab a start. I've expanded my comfrey plantings by taking December cuts and potting them inside. When I take the cuts the plants are mainly in frozen ground with some softer soil right at the growth tips.Here's a picture of one of mine I just took. 20221231_122240.jpg
     
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  19. I'm kind of the same way. When I have an issue. I want to know why and how to adjust to correct it. Happy New Years @old shol4evr and everyone here on GC.
     
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  20. im gonna try and start more, when i planted the last 4 it was in early summer and by mid summer they were burned up.
    it tends to get past 90 pretty often by march here hahahah
     
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