Perfect Blend ferts (CNEF)

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by absolut666, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. #1 absolut666, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2010
    Hey ppl,

    after looking for a (long) while for mycorhizza inoculants i found only one option(in my country) - a perfect blend ferts which contains a small amount of spores (0.86 propagula/gram) - just for comparison: endomycorrhizae-powder - says 220 props/gram(MycoApply® Certified)

    besides myco they make a lot of claims about building soilfoodweb (by growing cyanobacteria first as source of food up the food chain - eg fungi/nematode/protozoa), building humic acids (400-600%) and building a healthy soil on sand(!!!) after one grow cycle - sounds pretty incredible, but they use a lot of Dr. Ingham stuff (at least they say they do, and she supposedly reviewed their "infomercial" in the link above).

    anyway, did anyone try it or has at least some WAG about it?

  2. #2 jakrustle, Oct 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2010
    absolut666, I got a product from They do/sell the MycoApply certified products. I got a 1lb. package of granules for 16.95. And yes, the propagules/gram are much higher, but I am not sure if we are comparing apples to apples. Your product may come with other effective ingredients or ingredients that are not necessary. I cannot seem to open the sites you attached to see if I am knowledgeable of any of the ingredients.

    Hopefully someone with some real knowledge on the subject and your exact product can give you some input. Good luck with your grow.

  3. thanks Jak

    i actually went with Great White Shark - they have MUCH more strains of VAM and Trichoderma. and you are right - the myco part is "icing on the cake" for PB - their main claim is building humus, growing cyanobacteria, the SoilFoodWeb stuff - that's what interests me the most about them - IF that's true

    thanks anyway and good luck to you too :wave:
  4. That's what i use! Left over from hydro. I recently ordered some TM-7 tho, it looked like a good product, and i'm almost out of my 'GWS tea maker'.
  5. Hey Skunk
    i was always wondering - do u actually see the fungi on the roots - or is it only on pictures in commercials? anyway, how did u use GWS and at what stage? seed/seedling?
    and did u just put it in or watered it in?

    btw what's TM-7?
  6. absolut666

    Where to begin.......................

    Let's start with the interesting comments about cyanobacteria
    So their growing out algae - not exactly rocket-science in the whole scheme of things.

    Next up is this comment: "building humic acids (400-600%)" which I cannot make any sense out of. Most of the mined humic acid sources were created in the Fruitland Formation period - between 6 and 7 million years ago. If someone out there has a method to manufacture humic acids in a lab then they wouldn't be selling it in a grow store outlet. The worldwide demand for real, viable humic acids is incredibly high.

    The levels of mycorrhizal (looks like they have both endo as well as ecto strains) reads "0.86 propagula/gram" vs. BioAg VAM which contains 82.0 propagula per gram. IOW 100x the levels. And the BioAg VAM contains only endomycorrhizal - the ones used by annuals, softwoods, etc. [cite]

    Sounds like a company with some wild-ass claims tossing out verbiage that has a ring of authenticity to it. What's the price on their product line?

    Just curious.

  7. #7 SkunkPatronus, Oct 5, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2010

    My roots are in the soil, i don't see any of them. My roots have fungi, otherwise the plants would be hungry and they are not, the fungi feed my plants and they seem to be doing a fine job. I think you need a microscope to see them. I put a 1/4 teaspoon of the GWS into a 2 gallon bucket of clean water and some blackstrap molasses and powdered rice and bubbled it overnight. I feed in two installments and bubble it between the installments, because bacteria grow first, them the other stuff gets a chance. The plants are doing well, so i don't know if they are doing 'well-er' with the addition. In veg or flower it seems. I will use mine up before i start the TM-7 that is coming.

    You can also bubble some 'good dirt' from a healthy plant that you already have on hand and water the others with it, in the same manner(with the molasses, or powdered rice). It is just inocculating the less healthy one with the better soil flora that the healthy plant is doing so well on. And to help the rice contained the bacteria lactobacillus acidophluous(sp?) and it's killer good for plants. Didn't know i was doing this (adding lacto by using rice as my carb for the bacteria) until Lumper explained how to make your own lacto at home using rice water; lacto is to use on things to break them down for your soil. Ive done bananas, potatoe skins and cuke skins, i needed the pottasium badly. Plants like lacto anyway, keeps them healthy and powder mildew away.. anyway... bubble some good dirt and feed the sick ones with it, if you ever need to.

    sorry, i can ramble senselessly when i'm high... :D
  8. LumperDawgz

    I was SOOOO hoping that you would "pick up a glove" on this one - thank you so much!!!

    They actually say that "mined" acids are too old or something and it's much better when bacteria/fungi create new ones (in some magical way that they didn't explain)

    Actually i have a related question - after researching using barley straw (the one they use in cleaning ponds of algae) Barley straw or BARLEY STRAW
    i noticed that one of the theories is that decomposing straw turns into humic acids, and they in turn react with oxygen in the water (under sunlight) and turn into hydro peroxide (which seems to be the active ingredient in stopping algae growth).

    Sooooo..... is there any way to harvest the humic acids (like guarding from sun or something) or is it Lignin decomposition/fermentation in general? is there a way to benefit from it?

    Perfect Blend 4-4-2 contains Glomus intraradices/aggregatum/mosseae (from what i gather are pretty popular strands - i saw them in many products, but i'm not an expert like you obviously)
    anyway, they don't claim to be VAM product per se, and i looked at them only as a way to (weakly) innoculate with mycorhiza

    here locally (non-US) it's about 10$/kg

    THANKS A LOT, LD - any of your comments/teaching are GREATLY appreciated
  9. first of all, thanks for the "rambling" :D i WISH i was baked too - we have a national shortage of weed in the country(fkng pigs) - that's the reason i started growing myself (CFL/closet/soil/organics - 4 Mandala strains from seed)

    about seeing the Myco - i thought maybe after you harvest a heavily innoculated plant the roots WILL have something on them - guess not.

    i'm gonna use EM for FPE too (Gil Carandang - which LD pointed out to us all - THANKS!!!) - i'll start with Barley(fungi food) and Alfalfa(bacteria) - i'm thinking about ACT but buying brewer is not an option right now and DIY - as they say "my hands grow from my ass and with the wrong end" :mad::D

    i'll look into getting the myco from some other plants(non-MJ) i just found out that Glomus intraradices(the most popular strain for myco R&D) is pretty common.

    anyway, thanks for advice
  10. absolut666

    What barley seeds provide is high levels of enzymes. The straw contains the very same enzymes but not the same levels. Barley seed is malted and then made into a syrup (malted barley) and is the basis of beer and ales.

    Diastatic malt (made from barley) is also used by bakers to enhance the microbial activity of the yeasts and lactcobacillus strains which provide you with the taste of artisan breads vs. Wonder Bread.

    Barley straw is used in ponds to reduce/remove algae growth which can be fatal to fish if it's in high amounts.

    Chopped barley straw is a good material to use for the 'brown' ingredients in a thermal compost pile because of the enzymes that they contain which results in high(er) levels of microbes in the finished product. This chopped straw is also used as a mulch by organic growers to 'winter over' their raised beds and fields, i.e the earthworms in the soil turn this into black gold. Same thing if you use it in a worm bin - you get the same benefit.

    Before I try to answer a question about humic acid it would be helpful if we both are talking about the same thing. So here's an article written by a gentleman that I know to be to be an accepted expert on application of humic and fulvic acids - Dr. Ryan Zadow. It's not a long read.

    The Real Dirt on Humic Substances

    Once you get through that we'll at least have a set of terms because right now I'm very and really confused by some of the claims being made by the folks at Perfect Blend. To say the least.

    Let me know what you think about the article I linked to and how it stacks up with other information that you might have perused here and there.


  11. you are THE reason i started researching barley(and because i could source it easily :D) - your post about it Barley - fungi food - i just noticed barley straw decomposes into HA(and is spoiled by the sunlight), so i thought maybe we can exploit ii somehow
    i already read it (as everything else in your posts - HUGE THANKS - u opened my eyes on so many things) - and out of respect/awe of you:D- i just re-read it just now.
    i'd like to mention couple of things :
    1. the article mostly talks about labeling/measuring HS - but the interesting thing(see the foto again it looks like PB sand has BLACK humate, BROWN humic acids and YELLOW fulvic acids just dripping down)
    2. PBlend used images from this article in their docs (just as they use dr. Ingham's work)
    3. THe thing that impressed me the most with them is their tests with planting grass in glasses filled with sands - and after a year this sands starts to look like an actual soil(looks like HS is dripping inside)grass in sand - page 11 and see the attached foto

    I KNOW THEY SOUND LIKE SNAKE OIL - that's exactly the reason i'm seeking help from a knowledgeable person like yourself - it's that they mention/use almost everybody you do - Ingham, Zadow etc.

    sorry for the rambling - i'm ready to listen/eagerly await to what you have to say about humic substances and/or barley and/or whatever u want :D

    Attached Files:

  12. Bummer about the dry country, good to grow your own them. I love the Mandala strains too, my favorite weed is my Sadhu Mom, had her for years now.
  13. absolut666

    I think you're misunderstanding my previous posts on this thread, i.e. I'm not saying that PB is selling snake-oil but rather what I am saying is that some of the specific verbiage that they're using to promote their products are challenging to figure out. For me at least.

    So here's what I did - I went to the article that you linked to and downloaded it and turned it into a PDF. I also downloaded the specific studies/cites listed at the end of the article and found them online using a science-based search engine. I took all of the documents and with the article made a master PDF so that I can upload it to my Apple iPad to read as an ebook. It's easy to make notes and create bookmarks electronically so that's become my preferred way of research. I plan on reading their supporting links first to get an idea of what studies they're referencing and the scope of the tests conducted.

    I will say that 2 of their references are part of a body of work that I'm familiar with meaning that I've read a few extracts on particular topics but have not read the entire body of work if comes from.

    So I'll read the data and then read the article that you linked to and see if I can figure out what's what. Or at least up.

    RE: Humic Acids

    One thing to consider perhaps, is that while a particle may well contain humic acid and perhaps even fulvic acids, what comes into play is when are those acids available through microbial activity. Some forms take years and years - not unlike Greensand which takes 8-10 years to be completely broken down. That's not the correct term but it'll work.

    Where pure humic acids come into play are those humate sources that are processed with a cold-extraction alkaline process that preserves the microbial activity. This is the only type approved by USDA's National Organic Program (NOP), Oregon Tilth, California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF), Washington Tilth, et al. Even OMRI chimes in on this one using the same criteria. The biggest players in the area of pure humic acid are Teravita headed by Dr. Boris V. Levinsky, Mesa Verde Resources headed by Bruce and Joel Reid, BioAg headed by Dr. John Faust & Dr. Ryan Zadow.

    A couple of notes, Dr. Levinsky and Dr. Faust were associates in the early days of research before either formed their respective companies.

    Both BioAg and Mesa Verde Resources use humate sources created in the Fruitland Formaton era. Teravita is pretty guarded about their sources and for good reason - they're based in Pennsylvania. Coal country. Oil.

    It's both the source and the extraction process that dictate the viability of a humic acid product. Sticking either Leonardite or leonardite in a bottle of water does not make it a humic acid. Because there are no legal standards/agreement in this area, fertilizer companies are able to pretty much do what they want. It's the informed consumer that will buy the real deal at very affordable prices and avoid the expensive, anemic products that fill the shelves at garden centers.

    RE: Mycorrhizal Fungi

    While you're reading and such you might want to look at this article from the Rodale Institure (the oldest organic organization in the USA - great people). This article has an overview on growing your own fungi hyphae. While this article does focus on the science of sequestered nutrients (specifically carbon), it does cover enough to give you some reference points for further study perhaps.

    The specific strain Glomus intraradices is the one you want to find in a mycorrhizal product. Generally it'll be about 1/2 the total spore count. It's the one strain most often found in grasslands, meadows, etc. It's also the most expensive to grow and harvest which has resulted in the business model that there's only 1 company producing these spores and they sell to other companies like Mycorrhizal Applications and others for their formulations.


  14. LumperDawgz
    thanks for the answer(or a promise of one ;))
    in the meanwhile, i'll research the DIY mycorhiza

    huge thanks on all the help
  15. LD,
    Is Glomus intraradices the strain that Naomi's sells?
    Be Well

  16. MizzaFishKilla

    The endomycorrhizal product from Naomi's does contain this specific strain. While they don't breakdown the quantities of specific strains like they did before they went 'retail' they do provide the overall quantities of the 4 strains that they include, i.e. 100,000 per 1 lb.

    From their old data sheets when they were strictly wholesale, the amount of Glomus intradices is 60,000 per lb.


  17. This is the only discussion I've found online for this particular brand of fertilizer! A local nursery was carrying 50# of 4-4-4F A for $25 so I figured I'd give it a shot. They didn't really have any information on it other than it being partially water soluble, and no one had really reported back on it yet.

    <tl;dr> This appears to be an all-in-one fertilizer for building top soil, containing mineral elements (Azomite), hydrolyzed CAFO waste (chicken shit, in this case) and liquid fish. The mycorrhizae inoculants are meant to rebuild populations in soils depleted by traditional synthetic fertilization programs, and the fertilizer itself steps in as a replacement until that has occurred. The main focus appears to be able to make the switch from synthetics to organics without equipment or process changes.</tl;dr>

    I emailed asking about application rates for containers, or premixed into a soil (thinking this was similar to other granulated ferts such as Organicare PURE and received this in response:

    This wasn't really helpful since I was expecting something like '1 cup/lb/whatever per cubic foot of soil' or similar. More digging around turned up a couple of rather long papermercials (their site seriously sucks to navigate) all centering around pushing this as a replacement for synthetic fertilizers, one that will help establish a healthy soil biota in soils that have been depleted over time. It really doesn't seem meant or marketed towards home users. Here's an example from their white paper introducing biotic fertilizers:

    What they really seem to be aiming at here is promoting building a soil-food-web and targeting bacterial repopulation to allow the production of humus. No mention is made of humic acids being present in the product or being manufactured in a lab, but rather setting the stage for it eventually to produce on it's own. I think it's rather interesting something like this exists, it allows (and seems to be centered around) using a sustainable method without necessarily having to change current processes or equipment in larger operations. Another one of the papers "The Symphony" is a great read, if you approach it from the stand point of being utterly ignorant of organic methods.

    Here's an excerpt illustrating the sort of advocacy you see here, and other organics forums:

    Sorry, that ran on a bit long, but I ended up getting pretty wrapped up reading through this. I have some experience with standard farming methods out in the dust bowl, and lived with the consequences for quite some time (sitting in the middle of a brown out dust storm for a solid day is no fun) so I was pretty excited about the concept.

    Practically, to play around I've taken 2cf local potting soil with visible cellulose elements from partially decomposed wood or plant matter and zilch for any pre-existing nutritional amendments but has good water retention qualities. I added 2 cups of 4-4-4F A, then planted two different varieties (rootbound at this point) that had been vegging for about a month and were about 12" tall directly into this (no 'cooking' first). They're watered via blumats with the res only containing 1/4tsp of Pro-Tekt per gallon, and went straight into flower. Unfortunately they burned right off the bat when they were first watered, but too not badly. Light leaf tip burn persisted for about a week afterwards, and now all growth is green and healthy looking and has stayed that way.

    As a top soil builder, I'll be using the lawn recommendation rates shortly and amending a seriously shitty part of my yard with it. This particular area is very hard, clay like, and does not get much in the way of light. I've tried a few cover crops (various clovers and others) without success - nothing really takes here. Once I add the perfect blend in, I'll try another dutch white clover cover and see what happens this time around. If everything I've said above is correct, then hopefully the clover should be able to take hold and run from there.

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