You are correct. Glad to read all is not falling on deaf ears. But I can find thousands of posts declaring such and such a light has better penetration when it is a function of one's entire setup and an entirely sunjective POV of those making such a statement. As such it is meaningless when applied to a specific lamp. A thousand watt HPS has greater INTENSITY than a 600 watt lamp, but not greater penetration as is frequently stated. To the other poster saying I just like to argue, the OP was a statement of fact and despite the handwringing has yet to be challenged with any degree of authority. I want to be remembered as the man who discovered penetrons.
You are correct. Glad to read all is not falling on deaf ears. But I can find thousands of posts declaring such and such a light has better penetration when it is a function of one's entire setup and an entirely subjective POV of those making such a statement. As such it is meaningless when applied to a specific lamp. A thousand watt HPS has greater INTENSITY than a 600 watt lamp, but not greater penetration as is frequently stated. To the other poster saying I just like to argue, the OP was a statement of fact and despite the handwringing has yet to be challenged with any degree of authority. I want to be remembered as the man who discovered penetrons.
Thank you, this is the truth, the troll (OP) just wanted to start sh!t and take what I said out of context. I never mentioned any such thing as "penetrons" I was talking about exactly this, some of the lights don't shine too bright if they are placed too far from the canopy. I am just a stoner and maybe the OP is trying to be a show off and make fun of potheads because we aren't all college professors I didn't even catch his smart @ss remark saying "penetrons" the first time I read it cause I wasn't paying that much attention. I guess he's one of those social vampires who enjoys making fun of people because of his own failures/shortcomings.
Which one of us stated something was basic physics that was nothing of the kind? Why do you think that ignorance is superior to understanding? This whole thread was started to educate not to attract nonsense. Stating facts is certainly not trolling. Do you truly believe that adding nothing of substance to a thread and presenting erroneous information is somehow helpful? What exactly have you contributed here?
Penetration is a complex concept, you need to remember that photons are about as small as particles get, and at that level spaces between things like cells are quite large, as are the spaces inside cells (wanna test it, hold your hand up to a light, you'll see some light getting through) That said, the more photons are arriving in a particular space, the more likely they are to find a way through those spaces. In this sense, HID lights are better, because they emit a lot of light in a small area, and more photons arrive at certain points. In the pure sense, that's "penetration", but it's a silly concept to try and apply, because mj leaves don't have an index of large the spaces between the cells, some leaves are thicker than others, young leaves have less clorophyll, etc etc. Basically, it's impossible to measure, but a light that puts out more photons from a concentrated area will be able to have photons penetrate further into a canopy (just due to the law of averages), in a restricted sense (in a certain distance from the light source). Measuring the ability to penetrate is pretty damn difficult, and damn near impossible to quantify, or qualify..
Exactly, because the leaves are translucent so the intensity of light does matter if you want the energy to reach the inter-nodes for bigger bud development. An incandescent certainly has little to no "penetration" you can tell because anything under the canopy under such lighting is obviously darkly shaded. Some plants contain more chlorophyll than others, the chlorophyll helps them absorb more of the light so Sativa strains tend to have better "penetration" because of the lower levels of chlorophyll and skinnier leave stature
Jesus christ NOOB187! Please stop trolling up this thread. I want to hear what one of the few people to ever make their own educated conclusions, as opposed repeating whatever shit they heard before, elaborate on some new concepts that should have always been known. He's not releasing some dubious research or saying he knows the only way---he's explaining the actual nature of the shit that happens in the closets of people that have done what you haven't! On second thought, after reading some of your previous posts, I dub you unworthy of listening to and deserving of your self-implied noob status. Here are a few of my favorite quotes: "yeah I've been doing A LOT of research on this stuff, + I have a (not so) successful outdoor grow under my belt...7 grams" Keep hitting those books, oh wise sage! "The waste run-off from human sewage is causing mutations in the fish/sea life because humans are consuming genetically modified foods which don't create healthy poop, but toxic waste in its place." Good luck backing up that statement. You just said that human sewage mutates sea life because of genetically engineered food. Otherwise, human shit is "healthy". " I read somewhere on GC that on average its about $20 a month added in the electricity bill running a 400, idk about the 600 tho." Well, if your first statement was true, the answer would be $30. So you don't understand how your power bill works or basic arithmetic. I could carry on for every post you've ever made, but don't feel the need. My point is clear and yours doesn't exist. Welcome to my ignore list.
Ok yeah penetration is BS in regards to canopy and light source. Now in regards to for mention girlfriend yes penetration is a quantifiable term. A point source is going to produce a fix amount of photons which will generally follow a specific vector (direction) unless they they do one of a couple things. They are reflected from a surface such as green photons being reflected from the leaves surface and to our eye which allows us to see the leaf. Or they are refracted when they pass through a material at any angle other then 90 or 0 degrees. When they pass through object this causes a phase change in the waveform which will cause a small change in velocity but does not change frequency. A good example of this is how an object will look distorted in water or a magnifying glass. Or they are absorbed either by one of the multitude of pigments inside the leaf structure, chlorophyll is not the only pigment absorbing light. When the photons are absorbed they are either used to provide the energy need to cause a chemical reaction or will be turned into heat. When the photon hits an molecule it momentarily displaces an electron cause a change in charge and which allows for it to either break or form a new chemical bond. This is how plants are able to process photons of light in to the usable form of energy, carbohydrates. So in terms of "penetration" not of the type involving another person it would be better to say that it is the photons which did not have any of the for mention reactions happen and is allowed to continue on in it direction. As someone had mentioned that in the atomic realm open space far out ways solid matter, so essentially there is microscopic holes just like the more viable holes in the canopy allowing light to pass through. So to sum this up your so called penetration is just unused photons that have not impacted something with mass. As I mentioned at the start they generally follow a direction, this is explained and proven through the use of something referred to as the double slit experiment. This is approaching my grasp of the subject but essential a photon can either act as either a particle or a wave form not both at a given point in space in time. In this experiment they have found that there is a quantifiable probability of a photon being at a certain point but it does not exist their until observed. To further skew things there is a probability of them being at points that would have been blocked by the slits or even in multiple points when being measured. Even the act of measuring a photons vector is going to influence it probability of being at a given point and other photons are going to influence its location also. This would be the cause for the "penetration" as it is called in the idiots guide to light. So generalized the "penetration" is the photons which have not absorbed, and there fore not have ceased to exist because their energy has been transferred to an electron. Now in the girlfriend example the penetration has been fully absorbed because it is only going to be at one point at a given time. Otherwise if like photons we could be in 2 points in space at one point in time DP would not have the risks gay related collisions since only one penetrating source would be needed. The source of light is is only going to effect the total number of photons and not their probability of being either absorbed or passed through a point be it a 20ma led or a 20k induction light. Hopefully this will either clear up ones understanding slightly or at the at least allow one to come to the conclusion that we can not treat light vectors in the same fashion as one would visualize the path of say a thrown baseball.
Oh I see after slugging through this thread ..it is old and well idk I am an agronomist who tried general physics but ... Anyway I need Swami's help .. is this possible: If I have the plants in darkness the necessary 12 plus to get them flowering (1 week now setting buds) then give them an occasional long day when I can get them outside will that throw off the flowering "mindset " and make the plants hermie? Is there any good to come of 65 watt cfls warm under the canopy as the 250 HSP can't get through the foliage ? Would I be better off. Placing them on the edge up/setting higher than the canopy of the 250 lit area to get some light under there? My biggest question is how close can I put the leaves and buds to a 250 HSp without damaging. Don't want to experiment with permanent effects. Could you please point to good posts about how close I can get them. If the fan blowing bulb keeps temps below 85/ what is the limit please to proximity to bulb. Thanks Urlove and Durgahands
Face it dude! You just have this sexual hangup thing goin' on. Why else would you be so obsesed with banning a word that's represents just a simple way to impart that HID lights throw more lumen intensity further than T5s or CFLs. A light meter held at incremental distances from one and then the other leaves no doubt as to the validity of the hypothesis. The fact that sunlight cannot penetrate a forest canopy any more than it does is irrelevant. Or, how much less would it illuminate the forest floor if it were a giant CFL?
CFL's are useless. Fucking useless. I wouldn't use them to light my porch. The HID can be less than a foot away from seedlings. No problem. set your osillating fan pointing at the light, with the breeze from the air slightly moving your yung un's. they're the future. treat em right!
Dude who cares . You obviously not growing . Cave man for instance had no clue why winter comes after the summer , but they knew that winter will come after the summer .... Same shit is here , everyone and their sister knows that the stronger light you have the bigger your "popcorn will be " .... Penetration - shmenitration .... You just a fUnKin' troll who is tying to show your " smarts " ha ha ha .... I just can not stand people like that , they ( attention whores / trolls) are just enjoying to show how smart they are , having discuttions about nothing ... START GROWING and you not going to have time for this nonsens . Summary: OP is a tool and troll or may be just an attention whore who is just can not help him self but to show some random people online how smart he is ( No friends? Or they just smarter than he is , this is why he is whoring online?) Eeh... Lame ....So fucking lame you and your " smarts"..... Name calling and disrespect doesn't fly here at GC........Chunk
NO, I am an internet author and engineer who has written some 20 articles (not threads) on horticultural lighting and the dispelling of common myths. If educating people is trolling...
About that 'penetration'. It's semantics. A quazi word. It doesn't actually exist. It's a 'thought concept' (like time-space), and it appears to be a mix of photon density, dispersement pattern from initial source, overlayment of reflectivity/reflected light if any, overlayment of photons if there is more than one source of light, and time if there were distance enough. Just a thinking concept. But it can be explained like this: If you have two storm clouds, which hold the exact same and certain amount of water, and one cloud is a tall towering thunderhead, and another is a long horizon covering flat cloud, and they both drop their water at the same time, the thunderhead will cover a mile by mile plain in a deluge of water, and long willowy cloud will cover an area 10 miles by 10 miles, and the rain will be a more sparing pattern of less 'penetration'. This is the dispersment pattern in action. This is the shape of the light, the reflective surfaces to help the plant get more of it. But the farther you get from the light, the farther the photons are from each other because of outward movement and so you get less photons in each sq inch than you would next to the light source where the photons are closer together still...that whole matrix is 'penetration'. Take a cup into a sqall, you fill it slow. Take that cup into a thunderhead, where the rain drops are half an inch apart, you get a lot of rain in it. This is your lamp, you are trying to catch photons in a cup, a leaf cup.
Hey y'all, I appreciate any debate, thanks for the opportunity to witness.. especially the point where becomes clear. When people say mean things... Well that simply isn't very adult nor merciful. Please stop attacking each other and get on with the debates Thanks, I may be small and ignorant but I won't even listen to rude people. Please be respectful and give it your best.
PS I am a person who needs to find the group of 250 HSP growers. I have questions about whether I should crank up my MH and add it to my 250 HSP which has a hortilux dual spectrum bulb. Wondering if I should switch out this bulb for the all red bulb now that I am into flowering 2 weeks. I will kee this dual spect bulb in as somewhere I heard the mix of red blue gives a better result with sativas. When I crank up the MH I will put the red bulb back into the HSP . I keep the fan blowing across the bulb and my plant tops about 7 inches below. How does one determine if that's too close? They are reaching up and not appearing scorched at all. Ok thanks.. yes I am in the wrong post but I am retarded. I have spent hrs looking for the right threads to ask...and well quite feel tired of being somewhat lost. I wish people would be more detailed in the thread titles. This one is 'bove my head. Thanks for tolerating the little sister who alwasy wants to hang with ...url
URL, I wouldn't worry about attaining mixed spectrum bulbs... just run with the HPS for flowering and if you wish to supplement blue light- it's said to increase bud density- add a 35 Watt CFL in there or something of the sort.