Palestine!

I'm not going to say much about who's to blame from the beginning but I can say that neither the Isrealis nor the Palestinians have done the right thing at all, at any point. Even if you can logically explain that the Palestinians have the right to that land it's not going to help much if you gave it to them. Even if the palestinians succeed and drive away the isrealis then there's another massive group of people with no place to call their own. I think the best solution is to start a new democratic Palestinian state far from the isrealis. If it were up to me it would be on American soil, that would be the ultamite message to the islamic world that we mean them no harm. Of course no side would ever agree to that.

 

and a bad one at that.

after the genocides of ww2 it is more or less obvoius that jews should have a place where they can be home and call theirs. regaldless off previous origins.

however this does by no means excuse the brutal behaviour israel shows towards palestinians. israel have stolen the west bank and gaza from a people who have lived there for centuries. the continuing policy of settlements increase the occupational level of israel in these areas.

the palestinians are no more terrorists than the french resistance was during ww2. their modus oparandi are a bit extreme, but the goal is the same, get rid of an oppressor.

 

I really liked Harry Trumans style, but I think he got lobbied heavily, and like everyone else got caught up in the horror of the camps. I've often wondered about putting two majorly conflicting religions next door to each other. You never see the Baptists and the Jehovahs Witness's churches sitting next to each other. Think of the one great diplomatic problem of the last 100 years. The middle east. Right?

 

this message brought to you by drunken austrailians for peace

I agree with you btw critter

 

i hate to be the one that goes against the bunch... but Israel did win the 6 day war. this technically entitles them to the land which the palestinians inhabit. they refuse to be happy with what israel lets them have, and want more... therefore they never cease to launce assaults on israel.

palestine needs to chill out and just be happy that they're even allowed to remain where they are.

 

i don't consider myself as having bias facts... the mere fact that israel won the 6-day war gave them total control over all that land, not just where they inhabit now. the palestinians refuse to leave. i've done the homework, and actually have a 5-page (ish?) article on the subject sitting in my bookcase... not saying israel couldn't go about getting them out in different ways... just stating the fact that the land technically belongs to them.

edit: by the way... the one thing i said "they refuse to be happy with the land that israel lets them inhabit"... disregard...

 

it was the other nations that attacked israel in the war... not the other way around. AND to top it off, the other nations' intent was to wipe israel off the map. the israeli's then went on to drive them out and took control of the entire region in which they and the palestinians now inhabit... meaning the WHOLE thing... what is now palestine, technically was land that was captured during the war... the israeli's technically have full rights to that entire region.

now. what i do agree with you on, is that the whole thing over there stinks. it should be handled differently. they should just divide the land equally, and agree to disagree.

on a side note... all the stuff that's happening over there now was all written down a long time ago. thousands of years ago prophecies were written that fortold all the war that's now taking place in israel... it also says that israel isn't going anywhere any time soon. i believe that some time in the future you'll hear of russia siding with the mid-east and attacking israel with the same intent as the mid-east had during the 6-day war. israel will be triumphant... not 'cause of their armed forces... but because it's all God ordained.... these prophecies are thousands of years old, and coming true... kinda makes ya wonder if they're right... at least it makes me wonder anyway.

ya don't gotta worry about sounding argumentive critter. i understand... and am the same way. just stating what i believe to be true, based on what i, personally, have learned about the subject.

EDIT: by the way... the 6-day war was when several islam nations in the mid-east waged an all out assault on israel. over a quarter million of their troops swarmed in and completely surrounded israel with the intent to totally destroy that nation... AND these weren't rock throwing kids... these were soldiers, armed with a variety of different weapons.

 

you're wrong cottons. that israel won the 6 day war, don't entitle them to occupy land. that's just plain wrong. if any conquoring (how do you spell that?) nation is allowed to keep the lands they take, then we should have leaved hitler (and iraq in 91 for that matter. after all, kuwait was a former iraqi region) alone. or not been opposed to the soviet occupation of eastern-europe.

and another thing, don't believe everything you read in the bible

 

The current leader of israel, Netanyahu? Was forced to resign as sec. of defense? years ago because he orchestrated the largest massacre of palestinians in the history of isreal. He has openly said he will not be happy until the palestinians are driven from the region completely. He believews them to be a race of inferior people who don't deserve to live. Sound familar?








Another guy had the same idea about the jews. His name was Hitler, would you defend him too?

 

in many respects israel is the worlds last standing racist nation.

it boggles the mind thinking of how strikingly similar israeli treatment of palestinians resemble that of former apartheid south-africa treated coloured citizens. or the nazis treatment of jews, gypsies, commies etc.

 

oh yeah... another guy/coundtry had the same idea about the japanese during WWII... his name was Harry S Truman, and the country was America...

and whoever said that i'm wrong about Israel owning the land due to them winning the 6 day war obviously doesn't know much about war. afghanistan went to war with russia back in the 80's because they wouldn't get out of their land. when afghanistan won that war, they reclaimed their land. when we won the war against england during the revolution, we won the rights to this land... the mid-east attacked israel, israel drove them back and took control over the land. this technically entitles them to that land. i don't agree with the war (like i said before... things could be run quite differently over there). all i'm saying is the land technically belongs to them.

and dude... when you can show me where the Bible is wrong... that's when i'll stop believing everything that's in it. but even the skeptics gotta admit that it's weird how those things were written down thousands of years ago... and they're coming true today. i'm sorry, it's just too convincing... at least it is for me anyway.

 

We weren't fighting the Japanese to wipe them out as a race. To compare our motive for fighting the japanese to hitlers persecution of the jews is just silly, if not ignorant.

And don't even get me started on the bible, which was basicly derived from excerpts from the Torah, which predates the christian religion by about 2000 years.

""Faith" means not wanting to know what is true."

"The man of belief is necessarily a dependant man....He does not belong to himself, but to the author of the idea he believes."

Nietzche

"He who knows only one religion knows none."

Max Muller

 

i've postponed writing this reply for a couple of days to see what the reaction was to cottons last post. sadly only one reply. a good one at that, but only one. well, that only shows that flamewars are hard to initiate at the city.

*great*

therefore i won't go into religion. we'll never agree on anything if we keep bashing our heads against that troll

cottons mentioned afghanistan and russias adventure into that region. in order to not get too detailed, and cumbersome, here is a short brief recent history of afghanistan;

different factions argue about who's entitled to run the country. for the time beeing leftists control kabul. russia thinks thats allright. the kabul government however was under attack from religious hardcore groupings (among them the taliban, and osama, mind you) funded by the US. the kabul government *do not* like that, and invites the russkies to beat the insurrection down. well, they tried, they didn't make it. sound familiar. the US did the same thing in vietnam. to put it short the taliban won a civil war. a war restricted to boundaries of afghanistan. no land was lost or won. that US sponsored taliban later harboured terrorists that turned on their former financial funders is another story we know all to well.

as for israel, no matter how you turn the matter around, they are *occupying* foreign soil. that land (west bank and gaza) do not belong to them. it's that simple, it's not theirs. why, 'coz the 1947 UN accord gave parts of former british controlled palestine to jews as a safe harbour. a homeland based upon biblical tradition. they divided the area into two parts. one mainly jewish controlled and one mainly controlled by the palestinians.

that the arabs surrounding israel did not like this, and wanted them out, shoved into the sea, expelled, and thus waged a short and (thankfully) failed war against israel, do not entitle israel to anything except the right to live as they wish within their own states boundaries. the palestinians want that right too!

that is why western democracies fought hitler in ww2. to remove an occupying force. to remove an oppressor on foreign soil. to rid the earth from someone who thinks might is equal to rights.

that is why the west and arabs alike went to war against iraq in 90-91. to secure the kuwaities right to live as they choose within their national boundaries.

luckily we now hear from mr. bush that next palestine is high on the agenda, and isreal must accept a palestinian state to be formed. let's hope this will come true.

//sorry if i tire you all with my usual long posts...

 

well, lesse... i wasn't talking about us trying to wipe the japanese out as a race. i'm referring to how we treated japanese americans during the war. we kept them in concentration camps, we abused and humiliated them... and for what? because they were japanese.

and have you ever picked up and read a Bible? if so you'd realize the whole first half (known as the old testament) IS the Torah... plus a couple books. wanna know why? BECAUSE JESUS WAS A JEW!!!

you can say whatever you want about the Bible, and how it's supposedly wrong... but until you can actually back up your claims by showing me proof of how it's wrong, or how it ligitimately contradicts itself... your argument has NO ground, and you can't make those claims.

 

i wouldn't do this, i said i wouldn't but here goes:

why the bible is wrong, a short overview based on blatantly unreal biblical myths...

- life, the universe and everything

thanks to douglas adams for the title. anyho', genesis ( the first book of the bible / torah ) claims 7 days for the creation of the universe. well... hmm... some claim that for god, a day could be a thousand, even a billion years, so problem solved. not quite. the order of "apperance" is wrong.

- first there were darkness. no, first there were light. the universe started as a huge explotion, emitting among others, lightwaves. some of this energy can still be detected using radio-telescopes.

- created the sun and the moon at the same time... no, i don't think so.

i could go on. it's not important, merely details.

- next, virgin birth. this is actually a tale that comes from india, and predates jesus by some centuries. well adopted into the bible, but still a recognized "copycat" tale. and the concept of virgin birth, really?!

- don't get me started on miracles. never happened, allright. made water into wine. btw, why are all tee-totalers christian, i mean, jesuses first alleged miracle was to make harmless water into diabolic wine

about the only thing the bible didn't get wrong, was that we should essentially be kind to eachother!

well, the latter part of the bible anyways. the old testament is a bit, erm, rough, a PG rating at least...

 

hmm... well, i read your post, and all i have to say is: wrong, wrong, and wronger still.

first off. the universe being created with a big explosion is a theory. this means that it has NOT been proven true. and before this explosion, what do you think there was? DARKNESS!

the virgin birth was first spoken of millenia before jesus' birth. it was prophecied in the torah as a sign of the messiah. so, again... you have no grounds for argument.

you say miracles never happened? i personally know of several people who are alive today because of miraculous healings.

and you REALLY have your facts wrong about the jesus turning water into wine deal. the wine it was turned into (and this is widely known fact) wasn't alchoholic. alchoholic drinks were known as "hard drink" back in those days... not wine!

you're also wrong when you say that about the only thing the Bible didn't get wrong is that we should be kind to eachother. i have a cousin who's an atheist who will even tell you the Bible is historically accurate... and you still offer me no proof of your claims. i dare you to show me a legitimate contradiction in the texts of a King James Bible. if the Bible's so wrong, and not from God, you should have no problems finding one because man can't create anything that's perfect.

people have been looking for errors in the Bible since it was completed... and guess what. none have ever been found. so please... if you're going to argue with me about the Bible and Christianity... make sure you know what you're talking about... otherwise you're not going to stand much of a chance.

not to be an ass or anything... just debating my beliefs. please don't take anything i say here offensively. it's just that the Bible is something i know a lot about, and i don't like when people claim they can show how it's wrong, and have a bunch of info that's completely flawed.