If you're visiting this thread, obviously you know the deal. This thread is a discussion regarding the Palestine/Israel conflict. I hope we can all be mature adults here, that goes for supporters of both Palestine and Israel. I only want this to be a discussion regarding the two and not an argument on Judaism and Islam. I do not mind if you bring religion into the debate, just be respectful about it. Rules: Do not troll or respond to trolls. Please keep the sarcasm to a minimum. Foul language is okay as long as it isn't directed at a member. If someone asks a question, don't play dumb. Answer the question so we don't prolong the discussion at hand. If you post a news article, post the text in a quote tag and post the link at the bottom of the post. Make it easier for other members to read what is your opinion and what is a news article. If you are interested in joining the conversation, that is fine. Please keep it in this thread to reduce the amount of pollution that is in the Politics section of the community. Stay Friendly.
These are the types of actions that need to stop. This isn't helping anything in the long run. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/13/israeli-soldier-stabbed-bus-afula?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
I think that at least one major cause for these types of conflicts is our mentality about them. Its not Israel vs Palestine, its people first vs other people, with different religious and national backgrounds which they feel gives them the right to violate other people with violence and more then half the time its done in the name of 'greater' good. And thats why I think I solution for these types of situation is to remember the humanity of individuals, and at the very least acknowledge these are human beings harming other human beings. The devil uses thinks like religion race nationality ethnic background to seperate a brother from another brother, but he only succeeds when we let him. Devil is obviously a metaphor whether for the Israeli brass which has no problem eradicating innocent people caught up in the war simply because they arent jews, or the suicide bombers which have no problem taking out innocent kids just as well in the name of a holy war and believe they get to go to heaven so that justifies their horrific acts, or maybe both parties are metaphors of the devil? [insert keanu pic here] I think we need to lean to identify our selves as part of the human race, meaning all the innocent people regardless of nationality or race are all part of your family. And recognize that our true enemies are those who seek to create friction and division amongst our selves so that they can keep power and influence and accumilate more of it, whether they be brutal dictators who want to spill innocent blood or whether they are the guys who supply and ifluence and issue orders to suicide bombers but never wear the vest themselves and why is that? call me when they start blowing themselves up instead of manipulating weaker minds to do their bidding because who wants to really blow them selves up?
It's been 60+ years and they haven't figured out that they are all human beings living on the same planet. That's all there is to say
Another thing that holds them back from a peaceful existence is the urge for revenge. You kill my brother, I kill your mom, that sort of thing. This needs to end before any type of peace settlement can continue. It only makes the vendetta between the two that much worse. I see what you're saying Rotties and you're right. We all need to understand that's we're all humans. We all have blood running through our veins. I can see why the Palestinians do what they do, but I can't understand why the Israeli government treats the Palestinians the way they do. It only hurts the cause and this leads me to believe they don't want peace or for Palestine to become a developed nation. I think in our lifetime it's possible that peace will fall upon Israel and Palestine, Mainly because a lot of the older, more conservative generation is dying off, although nothing will change if the people themselves (on both sides) won't change.
You guys need to watch the South Park episode that just came out about Islam Judaism and Christianity all settling there differences
Because of the general collective which prohibits that sort of mentality from being developed, instead of nurishing it we choke it. It needs to stop because one of the reasons is that, that statement is not entirely correct? If you knew the actual individual (notice how I said individual, not a palestinian or israeli) who was responsible for killing your loved one, but you dont, rarely is it black white where killing that specific individual avenges your loved one and gets you closure. Again we lose our humanity and we go after the collective, we dont care about the innocent (people who are not the directly involved in the incident, meaning if a few israeli soldiers are doing something wrong or a few palestians who doing something wrong, we put them in a group or a collective and demonize the whole, demonizing our selves in the process, funny how life works) people we kill in the way are some else's mother, father, daugher, son, wife, husband, and we create more of what caused intially the death of our loved one, and inturn we help to insure its caused to others regardless of our intent. What makes you believe that had the rules were reversed, the palestian government would be worse or better at treating the israel any different, from other people's point of view, they might see that the israelis would have been treated just as bad or worse, what makes their point of view and more or any less valid then yours? Im not trying to justify either party, but what I am saying is looking at it that way, is part of the actual problem which leads to these sort of conflicts as oppose to actual solving them The only reason I can agree with you here is because of the way I am able to communicate with you right now. If every single person had access to the internet, unrestriced access not limited by any body subjecting their morality on anyone else, and using force or coercsion or religion as a means of perssuation then peace would come within a month. But wheres the fun in that? how are the collective people in power and influence could possibly remain in those positions when their subjects are no longer ignorant? Why do you think the so called intelligence agencies are so powerful regardless of their location? because they have access so information we dont, and if we make that information accesible to everyone, their power and influence weakens, they will do anything and everything to prevent that from happening. Especially if they are convinced its for the 'greater' good, at the end of the day who gets to decide what qualifies as greater good? who gets to write history as they choose to? the winners.
"Israel" invaded Palestine, took part of Palestine by force and tyranny and called it Israel. Palestine tried to fight back to prevent the theft and murder and is labeled as a "terrorist" nation for doing so. Now Israel attacks the rest of Palestine en masse, and any small retaliation from Palestine is blown entirely out of proportion compared to how much Israel terrorizes Palestine. Both sides have extremists who comitt crimes that are worse than normal and should not represent the average people. You won't hear that truth on Faux News.
heres a question how do you think palestine came to be? or any other country? you dont think people fought and invaded each other to create palestine? what is the appropriate length of time before the people who used force to establish bounderies get to call it theirs? nothing is anyone's, israel doesnt belong israelis anymore then palenstine belongs to the palenstinians, just not as many people believe it. but thats the universal truth.
That has happened all throughout history, yes, but Israel constantly denies that they stole any land. They claim that the land was always Israel from ancient times all because of a book. That's not good enough for me. Just because a book says that a certain people are entitled to a certain piece of land is preposterous.
I've tried reading about this conflict a lot, but it always seems to turn into a giant "he-said, she-said" where the story changes depending on who's article/opinion your reading. "Israel did this!" "Well, Palestine did this!" "But that's only because Israel did this!" "But they did that because Palestine did this!" At this point I feel like both countries are acting very naughty and I'm ready to turn this car around. No Disney Land for either of you.
This a great story about someone who traveled through Israel and Palestine and what he experienced. http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1pvksy/what_conspiracy_turned_you_into_a_conspiracy/cd6kofo
still havent answered any of my questions, whether Israel denies or not is irrelevant, might be relevant to your personally but just because something is relevant to one individiual doesnt mean people have to appease one person just because something is not good enough for them. Okay lets say they admit they stole the land and it happend just the way a lot palestians say that it did, lets suppose all that is true, now what? edit- i had to add this in Why do you think of all the mainly muslim countries (read :religion) that fight and taget Israel do so? Im honestly intersted in your opinion, if we can both agree that a book doesnt give any one or any group of people the right to use force or violence against those that disagree with them, because while I hear your support of palenstine which you deem as the victim ( if thats wrong please correct me) you never speak out against crimes commited against a person or persons of the jewish background? Those that support only Israel always support only Israel and those that support Palestine only support palestine, this little circle jerk is a perfect example of why we have conflicts. Too much racism and prejudice. Whenever one of you calls out the other on the bullshit "their" supposed people do, you both say the same song, well look at the shit "your" people do. I put those two words in quotations to illustrate that no matter how we dillude ourselves, one race of people is not yours anymore then the other one. Simply believing so doesnt make it so. Deflection is a classic escape from reality tactic, instead of owning up to our bull, we deflect.
I see what you were saying, but I wasn't being specific about the killing. What I was meaning was, you kill my people, I kill your people. I suppose I should have specified that more clearly. I posted about this in the beginning of the thread under the 3rd post regarding the link about a Palestinian killing an IDF soldier on a bus. I can't speak on if the roles were reversed. I don't believe that should excuse the actions of the Israelis because the Palestinians might do the same if given the opportunity. Of course you're not saying that, but that's what I'm getting from it. "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell I agree with what you said here. If more people of the world have access to a free, unrestricted internet, things would be slightly different. I can't pretend to have all of the answers because I don't. That is a reason for this thread because everyone involved doesn't know everything. It's impossible. History has been deleted to make the people in power seem right, the winners as you call them. We need to look past all of the violence and hatred from the past and look at the people will be treated today and tomorrow. I don't want them to forget but I think they should be able to forgive. Life is too short to hate a group of people just because you were either taught to or because their ancestors killed your ancestors and so on.
I dont mean to be a pretentious asshole as I dont have a problem with you at all, so forgive for picking on you, but what qualifies as "my people"? Is it ethnicity? religion? If only one of my grandparents was on one side of the conflict and the other 1 and both my parents were from the other side, would that mean I cant be pure blooded? so which would I be? 1 side will say Im the other "dirty" side, and not really accept me. I guess what Im getting at is at what point does this whole thing break down and become meaningless? Same with the Israel comment, how many years or so called generations would we wait before we can accept it? If you can argue semantics of it, chances are its illogical in the first place.
There you go, so if thats true. what should be done in your opinion? Nobody said anyone is infalible, not like any of us dont make mistakes, but you must have some sort of opinion? what should be done about the conflict? lets say Israel admits to all those crimes to build their nation, should they just say sorry pack up and leave? Im seriously curious about your thoughts, should all the kids and adults who have had no say in what netanyahoooo does, just like americans had no say in what bush does pack and leave? if thats true, what does it make us, we live in north america which was built on the blood of natives and labour of black slaves, should we pack up and leave? or have we lived the sufficient amount of generations that its okay for us to stay. Again Im not trying to imply anything, just trying to get a general idea of wheres your of thinking is coming from, I apologize in advance if I came off as a prentious ass, thats not my intention. Take solace in the fact that if I wanted to call you out on something specifically I would have.
My daughter lives in Tel Aviv her assessment is pretty simple "If they stop shooting at us, we will stop shooting at them."