Outside of Space/Time

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Insurgency, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. Discuss
     
  2. The God I believe in is outside of Space and Time as well.

    He's omniscient and omnipresent .

    There's not much more to discuss
     
  3. Wouldn't you agree that the clock has to be created?

    "In the beginning, God created..."
     
  4. If you are referring that the complexity of a watch needs a creator, I would simply tell you that the clock has always existed. It may not always have been o clock, but one day, at a certain point in time after millions of years of evolution, a being capable of reason emerged, eventually creating such a clock.
     
  5. I agree, but what evolved in order to create this being? Where did they come from?
     
  6. A watch is a watch only when it's parts are put together. The parts to the clock existed, but the clock itself did not. You can't separate something and still call it what it originally was. I understand your thought process, but I believe it might be a logical fallacy
     
  7. What created that god?

    The god I believe in is outside of the space/time that is outside that space/time.

    Who created that god?

    The god I believe in is outside of that space/time that is outside the space/time that is outside that space/time.

    Who created that god?

    The god I believe in is outside of that space/time that is outside the space/time that is outside the space/time that is outside that space/time.

    Sooner or later, someone is going to cop out and say "well my god's space/time doesn't have any time in it," at which point someone else will ask "then how did he find the time to create space/time?" Then we will talk about eternity: "it was always there." If it was always there, then why is it so hard to accept that the universe in some form or another may always have been there? And if we can accept that, then why must we look for a first cause or a creator?
     
  8. I look at it this way blowfish. The universe was always in God's mind. Him being eternal means that we and the universe always existed, in a different incomprehensible sense, consider that a cop-out all you want haha cause it is and I can admit it :)

    We are all ideas to each other at the end of the day. So we are just an idea of God's. You can debate this if you want, but I really don't see how you can debate the way I look at it.
     
  9. #9 Postal Blowfish, Feb 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2011
    Well, it is, but I haven't figured out a way not to cop out on this. Assigning it all to random chance doesn't work. Assigning it to god doesn't work. Saying it's the process of things we don't yet understand doesn't work. None of this shit works because we just don't know the answer.

    But I guess the point to me is that if you can imagine and accept the property of eternity for one piece of reality, why wouldn't you for the other pieces? It turns around in my mind so that the universe might always have existed in various states of expanding or contracting (or is occasionally in collision with other universes) for longer than anyone could measure. If I believe eternity, that's where it has to start. After accepting that, I don't understand why I would start looking for a first cause. In fact, once I've done that any creator I find for the current universe would not be a god at all, it would have some of the properties given to gods but not all of them.

    Maybe the problem I have with these ideas is that two people are going to have different views and this is a question that can only be answered by intuitions and reasoning at the moment.
     
  10. Space and time are illusory discriminations.

    We are all 'outside' spacetime as we are observing it to be what it is.
     
  11. #11 Insurgency, Feb 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2011
    "Outside" is meant only as an analogy to express a hierarchy of being; more specifically to imply that there is an "act of reality" which is neither an extension of space or time but is the ontological foundation from which and in which we discover physical reality. When I say "in", I mean only that there is a being that is required for the sustenance and existence of potential or contingent being. Physical reality is "timelessly" generated by this being and is more accurately understood in philosophical terms - at least in my mind - as an "existential cause", that which is the source and giver of potential and qualitative physical reality. We cannot comprehend what it is like to be a timeless spaceless cause, since our only analogy to a cause is one that is in time and space; but still, in understanding that physical reality is finite, contingent, and potential in its ontological extent, we must admit and infer necessarily that such a being exists under pain of ontological contradiction.

    Some contradictions are only apparent and are merely representative of things beyond our comprehension. Still, some things can never be considered possible, because their possibility would undermine reason itself and thus the very notion of "truth" and being. Out of nothing comes nothing is one of those things that cannot be challenged, since possibility is a function of being; its an expression of something. It cannot be only an apparent contradiction because if it were true that a thing could come from nothing, then being would be essentially no different from nothing; but there evidently is an essential difference. In the hierarchy of impossibility this is superior to all impossibilities. That a Being is, precedes the question of what a being can do, since being is required before one can speak of the function or power of being. Thus if one is stuck between two apparent contradictions, one must choose as true that which is necessary for the existence of the whole; thus If an existential cause does not exist, then there is no rational basis to think that potentiality or possibility can become ontologically actual or real; no reason for change. Thus there would be no reason why a potentially evolving universe should exist either.

    I am not saying irrationality created rationality.
    If you have only two choices and both of them present an apparent contradiction, it must be that one of them is not really a contradiction, but rather it is an incomprehensible thing, or something that we haven't yet understood. In analyzing both, you must choose as possible the one that is necessary for the existence of the potential whole, since the whole is contingent upon it for "esse". Being is always superior in comparison to absolutely nothing. That something can come out of nothing is always impossible and thus cannot be thought of as an "incomprehensible". Therefore there must be an eternal ultimate reality, from which all potential reality is born and in which potential beings are sustained. That you cannot understand how that is possible, is irrelevant.
     

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