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No-Heat Oil/Green Dragons

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by 221010, Sep 5, 2011.

  1. Hey there,

    I'm wanting to venture into the edibles world, but can not take chances with the smell of cooking with cannibis. I'm not interested in getting rid of the smell or having "not much smell-" I simply want absolutely no smell.

    I'm from New Zealand, which makes me think that Green Dragons are not an option, becuase as far as I know, we can't get the required strength alcohol in New Zealand.

    I'm thinking that I'll take some very-ground-up buds and decarb them (can I do this inside an airtight jar inside the microwave?) and then chuck them into a jar with some olive oil (or perhaps a mix of oils? ie- olive, canola, etc) and let it sit for however long it requires. I could also double boil it (not with a double boiler, just the jar sitting in a pot of hot water) if this would help?

    I'm quite interested in people with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE doing these things. There's so much conflicting information out there, "this chemical only does __ if you do ___" and all that, I'd prefer people giving advice from real experience.

    When I have some experience with edibles under my belt, I plan to create a no-heat guide, as there seems to be a lack of a guide like that, and it seems that a lot of people are trying to do this sort of thing.
     
  2. #2 BadKittySmiles, Sep 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2011
    The most likely reason that there isn't a 'no-heat' guide (actually, Mjmama has a very good 'Sun Oil' guide, which relies on the heat from the sun), is that it's essentially just grinding up herb, sticking it in a jar of oil or alcohol, and forgetting about it in a dark room-temp place for a period of at least a month... that gets you a bit better than the common firecracker strength, and closer to three months is best. :)


    I'm pretty sure there are more than a few guides and attempts, but half the people forget they have the stuff going and never report back, and the rest of the threads are, what they are... a photo of a jar, full of herb and oil, then a photo of the same jar a few months down the road. :)


    If you seal your material very well, you can heat it without any odor escaping at all. In fact, it is best for the quality of your oil, that you produce it in such a way that no odor or vapor escapes. You can use oven bags, for their low porosity and high temp resistance (we use a MUCH lower temp than they are rated for!), just add your herb, seal the bag with twist ties, or tie it in a knot etc., decarb, then add your oil once decarbed. This is very, very simple, and it leaves the bag cleanly and almost entirely, better than you could hope for in a crock pot or bowl, if you freeze the bag. Very little waste, is a bonus. Or you can use a pie dish, and wrap (or triple-wrap!) it in oven bags, or even foil. I have had police officers in my home, for professional non-cannabis purposes, while I had oil 'cooking'.. none were the wiser.

    The key to not allowing odor to escape, between steps, is allowing it to cool entirely.

    Smoking produces MUCH more, and a much longer-lasting, odor. :)


    FYI/edit.. - I was planning on keeping this to myself until completion, but thought it was worth mentioning that, as much as I didn't think there would be very much interest, a no-heat guide is in the works for the CannaPharm sticky. It's nearly 2 months in ;)
     
  3. Thanks BadKat ;) !

    I got too keen to wait, and ended up grinding my herb as much as I could, and chucking it in a glass jar that I got free with my Da Buddha. I chucked it in the microwave for only about a minute, due to fear of smell, and there was smell but this wen't away quickly, especially since I cooked some butter in the microwave afterwards.

    I fear that I didnt grind it enough (only as far as a shotty grinder would take me), but I'm guessing it'll still be okay, although not as efficient as it could be.

    I've left it sitting in baths of boiling water for about an hour or so, and I plan to do a boiling water bath every so often (every second day or something like that).

    I'm hoping to maybe get a few mason jars and start up semi-regular oil making if I am successful. IE- Always have some "curing" away in jars, and therefore have a regular supply of oil.

    What's the dosage like with oil? In relation to what one would smoke - if such a comparison could be made?

    I take it that alcohol extraction is the more efficient method of the two? (oil and alcohol)
     
  4. Hey, I'm in a similar position myself. I've been experimenting with oil for a few months now. I've done firecrackers, decarbed in the oven, heated oil in microwaves several times, used a double boiler etc. I've also done no heat methods. Basically what I have learned is:

    1. Heating seems to speed up the rate at which active ingredients are transferred to oil.
    2. Length of time in oil is proportionate to strength of active ingredient.
    3. I've also found that heating in a double boiler (or a strong glass jar in a saucepan of water for 40 minutes gave me same day rather potent oil. 40 minutes is no magic number, just the time I had.
    4. No heat sit out method can produce usable oil in 24 hours. Naturally it will be stronger the longer you leave it, but transfer is quite quick.
    5. That said, the longer you leave it to sit, the better "value" you get from your herb (ie, less oil, same high etc).
     
  5. Thanks for your input, weedian!
    It seems to be that heating it seems to speed up the process quite a bit. I'm wondering to what extent that applies with my method of heating (sitting in a bowl of water boiled in an electric kettle).

    I'm also keen to conduct some research into reusing the plant, for example - if I did a no-heat extraction over 7 days, (so there' still stuff left in the weed)- and then chucked the weed into some fresh oil, if results can be achieved again, with some degree of strength. Surely if the actives in the bud are worth waiting 3-11 weeks extra for, they must be worth reusing if you don't wait that extra time?
     
  6. I hear you. I actually frequently reuse.

    Basically, when I declare a batch to be ready (ie - want to get baked) I strain out the plant matter and set it aside for the next batch.

    That's because, like you've suggested, if you say do a no-heat (or even a mixture of heat/no-heat) and leave it to sit for a week or only two weeks... since the consensus around here is that a month or two is best, it makes sense to reuse.

    So first batch - 1 week steep.
    After one week (cos I can't wait) strain out the herb, use the oil.
    Place old herb and fresh herb together in a new oil bath.
    But wait, my first batch ran out...

    repeat etc.
     
  7. Good to know! So really when you use the oil before its ready, and people scream "WHAT A WASTE" - really, you're just wasting a bit of oil?
    On a side note - what oil do you use? I combined two oils, because I notice olive oil was only one type of fat, whereas the other oil had a fairly even mix of saturated, unsaturated, etc. I'm wondering if the type of fat matters, surely it must to some degree?
     
  8. #8 BadKittySmiles, Sep 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2011
    You're wasting a GREAT deal of potency if you under-process to that degree (24 hours in room temp oil, or 40 mins or less at a gentle heat), not just 'a bit of oil'... this is why we have so many failed edible stories, and so much dosage discrepancy. It takes quite a bit of processing in order for the material to be activated, broken down, and finally made bioavailable.

    As for some types of oil being better than others, you're looking primarily for coconut oil, for its MCT content. I use a blend of oils, from cocoa butter, to grapeseed, to avocado and even castor oil; a variety of oil sources, can get the bodies attention and provoke some absorptive interest from your digestive tract. Combined with easy to absorb MCT or MCFA oils (medium-chain triglycerides/medium-chain fatty acids), which are made bioavailable with minimum effort, and lecithin to promote liposomal encapsulation, (<--- use the search bar), you've promoted bioavailability via absorption and improved cellular permeability, and you have a turbo-charged 'vehicle' primed for cannabinoid delivery.

    Unfortunately, I don't think you'll find anyone who agrees that any noticeable amount of potency is achieved with room temperature oil, in only 24 hours. So yes, it will be MUCH stronger, than 'not at all', if allowed to sit for the correct length of time. :) You'll notice, if you've ever done it, that when using wet or dry-sift hash (which is the same material you're working with, when still attached to the inert plant matter), that those glands are barely even pliable after a 24 hour soak at room temp, and they require forcible squeezing between the fingers, and manipulation, to even release a fraction of their essence after such a brief period of time.

    Even sun oil takes a min. of a week, shaking included, and that applies a decent amount of heat. Any less, gives what is known as the 'placebo effect', and generally even this only works best in those with very low tolerance, or very little experience in edibles, who do not know what they should be expecting. It takes nearly a week at room temp in oil, for the process to even begin! The same with alcohol; just because your solvent happens to have stripped glandular material from inert plant matter, it does not mean that material is instantaneously bioavailable.

    For instance, we use simple ice water to quickly shake loose and remove glands from inert plant matter in a matter of moments; this does not mean those glands were made soluble.
    So just because your glands have been shaken loose by your solvent of choice, or even appear to have given your oil or alcohol color, it by no means implies that it has broken down into the smallest particulates possible, and required, in order to achieve bioavailability. This is why both dragons and oils continue to improve drastically, even after being strained, or separated from the inert plant matter.

    And it is why the very best cold dragons, both green and golden, are aged for months even if the alcohol is reasonably high proof. Even with a little initial heat to jump start it, it's best that you allow it to rest for a period of time, before consuming.

    As an experiment, make a large cold batch of dragon, and (if wasting potency is not an issue) after a week or two, begin sipping from it every few days, just once or twice a week so you do not grow much of a tolerance. You'll notice as the weeks go on, that even in spite of a slightly improved tolerance, you'll need noticeably less of your dragon, to achieve a much more powerful effect.
    All the potency you consumed before, which provided less of an effect, simply went 'in one end, and out the other'.Cannabis glandular material is notoriously difficult for the body to absorb all on its own, or with minimal processing.


    Hope this helps... Have a read around, there is a LOT to learn here. :)
     
  9. Thanks for the reply.

    Just to address a couple of points.

    I am not recommending anyone to take short cuts. That said, short cuts aren't always mistakes.

    In my experience I have gotten utterly smashed, to the point of passing out and still being high the next day - after weed I "processed" once for 20 minutes in the oven (peanut butter as medium).

    I regularly get high, ie full high kicks in between 1.5-2 hours after consumption of oil in confectionery (brownies etc) that has only steeped for less than a week. I also have premium brews mellowing out for a month or two at a time.

    So either (a) I have super low tolerance or (b) my weed is really fucking strong or (c) none of the above or (d) all of the above.

    I posted on this board earlier about scientific studies relating to absorption rates in fat, but alas, no one could help me out. Available online resources don't seem to be getting me anywhere - but there must be resources out there/studies done.

    That said, all of the above is in my experience. If your experience differs, that's fine, cos I'm not saying you're wrong, just that my experience is different.

    So my point, in a nutshell? You can get a decent high in a minimal amount of time if you are using good product. Naturally, it is recommended that you should leave it longer or heat process etc, but the only certainties are your body, your weed and your expectations.
     
  10. #10 BadKittySmiles, Sep 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2011

    Of course you can get a 'decent effect' from minimal processing... if you waste enough active material in the process.

    The more you waste, the more of what little is bioavailable you're likely to absorb. This is why firecrackers, a peanut butter-based edible made by multiple people, and commented on at GC on a daily basis, requiring heating for 20 - 30 minutes at a higher temperature, statistically thread after thread, and experience after experience, require so much more material, in order to achieve a lesser effect.


    And people with decent tolerance, whose bodies are accustom to the rapid delivery of a properly made oil, often feel nothing at all from edible oils which have undergone such little processing.

    Even those with lower tolerance, who have never had a proper oil, are quite often disappointed in the quantity they needed and the effect they achieved. That's one way of cutting corners. And when you cut corners by trying to rush the process at even more extreme temperatures, before you can even achieve bioavailability, you begin to degrade and deactivate a certain amount of potency. Decarboxylation (activation) is part of the natural decomposition or aging process of cannabinoids, meaning it occurs naturally over time, prior to the material losing potency. Once this has occurred, you face a delicate balance infusing that potency into oil without doing damage.

    Meaning that you waste a varying amount of your material's potential, by consuming nearly-raw, mostly inactive, and non-bioavailable cannabinoids, and by consuming over-cooked, rushed oil!


    To learn how to make this (or your trimmings...)


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    Into, this...

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    See the link below:

    (First Page, contains detailed information on decarboxylation, or cannabinoid conversion..
    decarboxylation is the process of activating your cannabinoids 'potency' by removing the
    carboxyl group in the form of carbon dioxide and water vapor, converting your cannabinoids
    from their acid, to their more potent delta forms):

    Photo Tutorial: Highly Activated Med Grade Bioavailable Canna & Hash Oil, Edibles, Drinkables and more...


    The best oils, produce little to no odor during processing, if sealed properly and heated and cooled correctly. You can easily put it in any boxed brownie mix... be sure to read the final paragraph for detailed dosage information.


    In the above link, you will also find tutorials for:


    Capsules...

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    Canna 'Bombs'...

    [​IMG]


    Glowing candy...


    -"Meddy" Moose Pops-

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    -Philosopher's STONES-

    [​IMG]


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    [​IMG]

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    Main courses...

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    Soup...

    [​IMG]


    Many desserts, even Jello...

    [​IMG]


    Drinks


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    UV/Glowing Drinks
    ...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    And Ice Cream...

    [​IMG]


    And among the many others, there are of course the old favorites, brownies and cookies...

    [​IMG]

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    And more...
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    All of the above recipes and tutorials, are in the link. Have fun, and good luck! [​IMG]
     
  11. That and you are just so bad-ass!

    Thanks for the pics info.
     
  12. #12 weedian, Sep 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2011
    Just an update. After reading Badkitty it got me thinking.

    You see, much of what I do has to happen on the sly, hence the short times etc. Using an oven in my circumstances arouses too much suspicion "Hey, what did you bake?".

    What I learned from Badkitty's process is that processing decarbed material happens at around 100-105 degrees (C). Sorry for the metric, but farenheit just doesn't make sense to me.

    By using a double boiler, keeping the material covered and observing the temperature, I believe I may well be able to get similar results without the hassle of a suspicious oven.

    As long as the temperature is approximately the same and the oil material mix is even heated, I can't see why, without a little trial and error, excellent results can't be achieved.

    Thanks again Badkitty for the nuts and bolts science/process. Will report back later in the week.
     
  13. Thanks for the help BadKat!
    My oil is currently being subjected to boiling water, I just sit it in there (lid over the whole thing) until the water becomes less than 'hot' - and then I replace the water. If I do this for say, an hour per day - do you think it'll help much?

    Weedian - your metric measurements are welcome here, as a Kiwi, nothing but metric makes much sense to me either =P.

    Can't wait until my oil has aged enough ;)
     

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  14. #14 weedian, Sep 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2011
    Another southerner, huh (I'm an Aussie).

    That method sounds ok, but I reckon heating oil in hot water is a sure fire way to rancidity. I made some oil at the beginning of summer (I'm in the northern hemisphere now) and was a bit too relaxed about temperature and ended up eating some oil on the verge of being rancid. It gave me a stomach ache and so I threw it out (I've eaten rancid oil before and it ain't pretty, hurts bad). So now I freeze or refrigerate after processing.

    As I see it, steeping in hot water won't raise the temperature much because of the laws of thermodynamics (temperature dispersion on transfer between objects of different temperature). And since you're probably only making the oil lukewarm by this method, you run a rancidity risk.

    If using an oven is out of the question (as in my case) you could try putting your herb oil mix in a sturdy glass jar (ceramic is probably fine too, just make sure it's thick/tough enough to withstand heat without cracking - you could even use a coffee cup/mug).

    Take your jar/cup and cover it with foil. Place in saucepan with adequate water, bring to the boil and replace water lost to evaporation until required/desired time is up.

    Be careful, because if you place the jar on the bottom of the saucepan and the element/flame temperature is too high you will be directly heating the oil (again, thermodynamics, element/flame heat transfers to saucepan which then transfers to glass etc). As long as you find the heat sweet spot though, you should be fine.

    Another solution may be to use a steamer or a strainer or metal colander to sit on top of the boiling water and then sit you herb mix jar/cup on top of that and let the steam heat things up. Just make sure you don't boil dry! Get creative!
     
  15. And that's the last time I submerse it in boiling water. Surprisingly it got pretty hot, but yeah, i'll leave it out.
    Will it age as well in the freezer? Or should it stay in a drawer or something. The way I see it, drawer would be best as freezing would slow whatever reactions need to take place?
     
  16. Freezing/refrigeration is about storage once the herb oil has been "processed".

    In my experience, it appears as though transfer of active components at low temperature still occurs, but it is slow.

    I would suggest "processing" your herb first (whether in the oven or as I described above or some other method that suits your situation) and then refrigerating/storing.
     
  17. I have a question for you, BadKat. If a low proof alcohol is used - does it matter?
    IE- will 200ml of 80proof work the same as 100ml 160proof?

    I don't mind having a diluted solution, just don't want to be wasteful..
     
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