New view of drone death toll

Deleted member 472633 · Jul 29, 2013

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/opinion/bergen-pakistan-drone-debate/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

The debate over the number of civilian casualties caused by CIA drone strikes in Pakistan is perhaps the most contentious issue in the often fraught U.S.-Pakistan relationship.
On one side are US officials who assert that the strikes kill few, if any, Pakistani civilians. In June 2011, President Barack Obama's then-counterterrorism adviser John Brennan claimed improbablyduring a speech at the Johns Hopkins School for Advanced International Studies "there hasn't been a single collateral death because of the exceptional proficiency, precision of the capabilities that we've been able to develop."
Two months later, U.S. officials speaking on condition of anonymitytold the New York Times that around 50 civilians had been killed in drone strikes in Pakistan since the 9/11 attacks.
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:inherit;font-family:inherit;">Peter Bergen

</div>On the other side of the debate are Pakistani officials such as the country's powerful Interior Minister Rehman Malik, who asserted in 2012 that 80% of the people killed in drone strikes were civilians. Earlier this year, before he stepped down as Interior Minister, Malik told Pakistani reporters that the strikes had killed mostly women and children.
Similarly, Maulana Sami ul-Haq, leader of the Pakistani Islamist party Jamiat Ulama-i-Islam (JUI-S), told crowds at a 2011 conference in Lahore that drones kill "dozens of innocent people daily."
Now comes a leaked Pakistani government document that helps to shed light on some of the facts surrounding this debate. According to the internal Pakistani report, civilian casualties from drone strikes are much lower than has often been claimed in Pakistan, but they are also much higher than the U.S. government has asserted.
The Pakistani government confirmed 10 civilian deaths in CIA drone strikes in 2009, according to the leaked official document obtained this week by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a London-based organization that tracks the strikes.
The report also found that from 2006 through October 24, 2009, civilians made up a minority of those killed in drone strikes: 147 civilians in a total death toll of 742, or about 20%.
That number is somewhat lower than the estimates of Western nongovernmental organizations that track the strikes. The New America Foundation estimates that up to 207 civilians were killed from 2006 to October 24, 2009, along with up to 198 people who were not identified in reliable media reports to be either civilians or militants.
Oddly, the leaked Pakistani report left out four strikes that occurred in 2007. It also missed nine strikes from 2008 and 2009, in which between eight and 10 civilians were reported killed, according to the New America Foundation's tally.
The leaked report is a welcome sign that the Pakistani government is making a concerted effort to confirm the identities of those who have been killed in U.S. drone strikes in the country's remote tribal regions that border with Afghanistan.
Pakistani authorities have long denounced the strikes, out of concern that civilian deaths caused by drone strikes inflame the local population, bolster militant groups and violate Pakistan's sovereignty.
The civilian casualty rate has declined steadily over the life of the CIA drone program as both technology and intelligence-gathering have improved. One civilian -- a 10-year-old boy -- has been confirmed killed so far in 2013, according to reliable media reports. In 2012, five civilians were confirmed killed, representing 2% of the total deaths.
As the civilian casualty rate has fallen, Pakistani officials who oppose the drone strikes have turned more frequently to the argument that they violate Pakistan's sovereignty, regardless of whom they kill.
Pakistan's new Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, told parliament in June that "We respect the sovereignty of others and they should respect our sovereignty and independence. This campaign must come to an end." As Sharif wrangles with the United States over the future of the drone program, a complete and authoritative official Pakistani tally of civilian deaths caused by drones would be a useful tool for those discussions.
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FIrst of all, yes I know Peter Bergen is a CIA stooge, but I was wondering if anybody has more accurate numbers, a liberal relative emailed me this, because I'm always railing at the drone program and the US's neocon foreign policy.

Tripace · Jul 29, 2013

Sounds like BS to me. Remember that the "official" US government definition of militant is any male of military age in a strike zone.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/

And a country like Pakistan doesn't have any "official" method of keeping tabs on their civilians from their actual militants, as far as I know, they probably don't really even have a reliable census. Some people live up in the mountain regions and in caves and whatnot, and they dont spend money as recklessly as our government does. Plus when you take into account that we know for a fact our government hits a strike zone with a drone strike, then waits until emergency responders arrive and strike again in order to kill them, the actual civilian death toll is going to be very high indeed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/us-drones-strikes-target-rescuers-pakistan

SmokinP · Jul 29, 2013

It is hard to get an accurate number of how many civilians the "Lord of the Drones" Obama has killed.

http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/

A leaked Pakistani government report has bolstered claims that civilian casualties from U.S. drone strikes are far higher than the Obama administration has been willing to admit. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism has released figures from the Pakistani government's own research into casualties from drone attacks in Pakistan's tribal areas. The Pakistani report investigates 75 CIA drone strikes and five operations by NATO between 2006 and 2009. It finds that the attacks left at least 746 people dead, including at least 147 civilians, 94 of them children -- a conservative count given the omission of key data. The high number of civilian casualties directly contradicts statements made by senior Obama administration officials and top lawmakers.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijR4d5EBUMA

TheDankery · Jul 29, 2013

Just yesterday there was another drone attack in Pakistan, even though recently elected PM Sharif has repeatedly stated his opposition to the attacks.

Pakistan's Nawaz Sharif declares end to secret approval of U.S. drone strikes

The thing is, it doesn't matters much what Sharif thinks about drone strikes because the Pakistani military controls their security policy, and we've bought off the military with billions of dollars in foreign aid. It must be embarassing for Sharif to protest constantly about the violations of his nation's sovereignty but ultimately be powerless to do anything about it. Surely if he talks too much, he risks being taken out in a military coup. Again.

FatGrow · Jul 29, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hh6avQkijI

skip to 10:31, cops watching two people make out for thirty* minutes with their drone I don't know about anyone else, but privacy being disrupted to that extent pisses me off.

SiicKxShoTz · Jul 30, 2013

smokinp said:

It is hard to get an accurate number of how many civilians the "Lord of the Drones" Obama has killed.

Click to expand...

If Romney was in the office the same things would be happening, but he would be called the lord of "freedom and democracy"

Johnny Cash · Aug 1, 2013

Tripace said:

Sounds like BS to me. Remember that the "official" US government definition of militant is any male of military age in a strike zone.

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/

And a country like Pakistan doesn't have any "official" method of keeping tabs on their civilians from their actual militants, as far as I know, they probably don't really even have a reliable census. Some people live up in the mountain regions and in caves and whatnot, and they dont spend money as recklessly as our government does. Plus when you take into account that we know for a fact our government hits a strike zone with a drone strike, then waits until emergency responders arrive and strike again in order to kill them, the actual civilian death toll is going to be very high indeed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/20/us-drones-strikes-target-rescuers-pakistan
Click to expand...

Maybe that explains why most of the "civilian" deaths are women and children.

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New view of drone death toll

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New view of drone death toll

Deleted member 472633 Guest

Tripace Registered User

SmokinP Por vuestra libertad y la nuestra Gold Member

TheDankery Registered User

FatGrow N.I.G.G.A

SiicKxShoTz Registered User

Johnny Cash Jantje Contantje

Share This Page

SmokinP Por vuestra libertad y la nuestra
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