New to organics...

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by angusnaut, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. Hey guys,
     
    I'm currently making the switch away from the chemicals... I've been a long time user and advocate of them. I can get good results with them, but there is always something lacking in my buds. Usually just the flavor profile.

    This round I am running 9 blue dreams under 1600 watts.
     
    From what I've read this isnt a good thing, but I'm using FFOF soil.... Ya, I had a few extra bags so I needed to get rid of it at least. It is 'organic' and the plants seem to like it... anwyho...
     
    I have a few questions...
     
    1. I made an alfalfa meal/ kelp meal tea the other day. I don't yet have a pump to aerate the mix. I've heard stirring regularly would be sufficient. Well, the tea I made is growing what looks to be a film of white mold over the top. Is this bad? I went ahead and dumped that tea out, I hate seeing mold, period. But if this is okay/ normal I will leave it.
     
    2. How long is a tea 'good' for?
     
    3. How often should I give them teas? - From what I've read organic feeding work differently than chemical feedings. i.e. we're feeding the soil, which inturn feeds the plant (in laymans terms). I'm pretty used to the 'every other watering' method, but don't want to burn my plants, nor leave them deficient.
     
    4. Will top feeding yield different results than a tea will? In other words what are the benefits of each?
     
    5. What supplements/ organic supplies should I be looking into for great flavor?
     
    6. I don't have an R.O. system. Am I okay to not PH my water, or is this only under certain circumstances?
     
    As of now all I really have is a box of dr earth kelp meal, and alfalfa meal. also molasses. I know I'll need EWC, but the FFOF has them in it already, so I assume I'm okay there? I'm a noob at organic, its crazy how different the two methods are

     
  2. Don't be down cuz u bought FFOF, man. Lotsa ppl use it. And so long as u don't use them bottled nutes on it, u should be able to recycle it.Can't help ya too much on teas cuz i'm kind of a noob. In a properly built soil, I'd say they are unnecessary though. And only use IF necessary. I've never used FFOF so teas may be needed once nutrients are depleted in there.Here's a cool link for kelp tea:http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/11759569-diy-instant-kelp-meal-tea-coots-hydrated-kelp-meal-trickOne thing that would be great to have around is an efficient aerated compost tea brewer. Homemade might not be optimal here unless you have a dissolved oxygen meter...Again no experience with FFOF... but in a properly built living soil, pH is not an issue. You want water that is Chlorine/Chloramine free.Sulfur is an important element for terpene development--flavor. S is abundant in neem cake and gypsum which are both excellent amendments IMO.Worm castings fresh from the worm are the best soil conditioner you can use hands down. Ewc is great because it is full of living microbes--so fresh is best.
     
  3. Teas should be brewed no more than 36 hours or they will go anaerobic and start stinking. That's where the bubbler helps by keeping the aerobic microbes going. A bit of molasses in the brew acts as food do the microbes can multiply quickly.Do another batch after getting some sort of aeration going and use that when mixing your soil. That will further inoculate your mix and really get things going. (Just started mine this afternoon.)Sent from somewhere over there. No, not there...over THERE.
     
  4. #4 KillerKush87, Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2014
    How long was your tea sitting? An unaerated kelp/alfalfa tea is fine.. I never aerate anything but compost/casting teas. You can add them almost as often as you want. But it isn't necessary. My first organic grow I added teas every 3 freakin days just because I thought it was cool haha... Didn't burn them. I burned through so many amendments I had to slow down! Now I add maybe 1-2 compost teas and 1-2 botanical teas during the whole cycle. You really don't need to overdo it. Your soil should provide enough to where you can use water only the whole grow. Your tea should not have had any kind of mold growing on it. Especially since it was the "other day". I usually try to use them up by a week or 2. Compost tea needs to be used immediately in case you didn't know. I don't understand your top feed or tea question? You mean you were going to foliar spray the tea and you want to know the difference between that and a top watering (soil drench)? If that's what you mean, you can add a tea directly to the soil. I make a diluted tea to spray on my vegging plants then water the rest into the soil. Nothing that I know of will directly impact flavor. Strain will be biggest influence on flavor. Properly made organic soil will bring out the terpenes and flavonoids like you've never experienced ;)Your water can be used without being PH'd or RO. The microbes will worry about all that. Just treat them well and they will provide your plants with everything they need.
     
  5. #5 KillerKush87, Feb 4, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2014
    Deleted: double post.
     
  6.  
    1. If you don't have a pump, you'll want to put a cap on and shake the tea vigorously every few hours.  Then, of course, take the cap off, and let it sit.  The pump is preferred, but not necessary.  Mold is bad.  With nutrient teas, we are trying to extract nutrients, not build microbial populations.  The tea is finished after 18-36 hours, and if you strain all of the plant material out, it will keep in the fridge for a few weeks..... if you leave some plant material in, it may begin to ferment, which is obviously bad.
     
    2. See above.
     
    3.  When they need it......  Your FFOF will run out of nutes after about 30-40 days.  Most organic growers can get away with 0-2 nutrient teas.  You will probably need between 2-6 for this grow (assuming you didn't mix anything into the FFOF.... right?).  There's no set rule here, but you'd be fine giving them an AACT (microbe tea) every other week, and a nutrient tea every other week (alternating).  Starting whenever they start to show their hunger (probably around day 30-40).
     
    4. Teas are most often top-fed..... soil drench it is often called.  The only other way to use teas is by foliar application (spraying leaves).  The nutrients in the tea are best used to feed your soil, but some foliar application is definitely useful.  For instance, alfalfa contains auxins that help reduce internodal distance, helping to reduce stretch when applied as a foliar.
     
    5. TJ is right- sulfur is the most responsible for the flavor profile of your fruit.  Use of gypsum, neem, and other amendments that contain sulfur is great for flavor- but don't overdo it trying to keep getting more and more flavor.  Sul-Po-Mag is another option... that's Sulfur-Potassium-Magnesium, in one additive..... let it dissolve in water for a few days, then apply it to the soil, not the leaves (I know this the hard way).  If you soaked egg shells in vinegar for 2 weeks, the calcium would be sucked out of the shells and into the vinegar.  If you added this (small amount) to your Sul-Po-Mag water, you'd have a well rounded mineral tea.  If you roasted the egg shells in your oven first, you'd have calcium phosphate, which would be even better.
     
    6.  TJ is right again- don't pH your water, but do remove the chlorine/chloramine.  Chlorine will dissipate in 24 hours if you let the water sit out (or faster if you bubble it).  Chloramine must first be converted to chlorine by adding either vitamin C or any organic matter (molasses, EWC, whatever).  I use Vitamin C because I found that if I used molasses to remove the chloramine, and then used that water for foliar, I would get shiny, sticky, molasses spots on my leaves. 50mg of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) will convert the chloramine in 1 gallon of water into chlorine, which will then dissipate as normal.
     
    7.  More EWC is very important.  You will struggle to make an AACT without EWC, and AACTs are very important, especially for your grow, because your humus component is not the highest quality (Fox Farms didn't put the primo shit in their product, sorry).  
     
    If you're asking what you need for this grow.... and you already have kelp and alfalfa.... then I'd say only EWC.  If you're asking what you'll need to get started in organic growing, and make your own soil.... start reading up.
     
    Start here: http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1116550-easy-organic-soil-mix-beginners.html (read the first 1-5 pages, depending how interested you are).
     
    And probably read some of this too: http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1266864-help-me-build-water-only-soil.html
     
    Then start reading whatever else you can find here in the organic section.
     
    A quick list of things you'll probably want is: Neem meal, crab meal/oyster shell powder, rock dust, and liquid silica (Dyna-Gro Pro-Tekt is best).
     
  7. What is the silica good for and when should it be used?Sent from somewhere over there. No, not there...over THERE.
     
  8. [quote name="KillerKush87" post="19461843" timestamp="1391487720"]How long was your tea sitting? An unaerated kelp/alfalfa tea is fine.. I never aerate anything but compost/casting teas. You can add them almost as often as you want. But it isn't necessary. My first organic grow I added teas every 3 freakin days just because I thought it was cool haha... Didn't burn them. I burned through so many amendments I had to slow down! Now I add maybe 1-2 compost teas and 1-2 botanical teas during the whole cycle. You really don't need to overdo it. Your soil should provide enough to where you can use water only the whole grow. Your tea should not have had any kind of mold growing on it. Especially since it was the "other day". I usually try to use them up by a week or 2. Compost tea needs to be used immediately in case you didn't know. I don't understand your top feed or tea question? You mean you were going to foliar spray the tea and you want to know the difference between that and a top watering (soil drench)? If that's what you mean, you can add a tea directly to the soil. I make a diluted tea to spray on my vegging plants then water the rest into the soil. Nothing that I know of will directly impact flavor. Strain will be biggest influence on flavor. Properly made organic soil will bring out the terpenes and flavonoids like you've never experienced ;)Your water can be used without being PH'd or RO. The microbes will worry about all that. Just treat them well and they will provide your plants with everything they need.[/quote]All I mean with the top feeding/ tea question is... I've heard you can dress the top of your soil with alfalfa meal and kelp meal and what have you. And scrape lightly into the soil. Should I be doing this aaaand giving them teas or just one or the other.Sent from my EVO using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  9. Top dress at tp's and what-not and then if the plants tell u that they need something, then u can add a tea. Teas are tools to be used ONLY when needed. U don't need like a feeding schedule or anything. If they look like they need a boost or something, add a kelp/alfalfa tea or top dress some ewc n chicken poo. Don't over-think it man.
     
  10.  
    Kelp meal (to some degree) and alfalfa meal (especially) are too hot to top-dress like that.  The most common thing to top-dress with is EWC.  Small amounts of kelp can be mixed in with the EWC, but I would definitely not top-dress with alfalfa.
     
    In terms of nutrition from kelp and alfalfa.... stick to teas
     
  11. Gotcha... I just really feel as if the ffof just isn't enough! I've grown in it before and I always have to feed a lot.Thanks for the silica read. I didn't know that. Ill be picking something up before flowering!Thanks for all the info everyone. Im slowly but surely liking this organic thing. :DSent from my EVO using Grasscity Forum mobile app
     
  12.  
    It isn't going to be enough.  You are going to need to feed your plants.  But there is no schedule.... feed 'em when they seem to need it.  Or give them a tea every two weeks and see if they need more/less.  Up to you.... no need to over-think it, like TJ said.  I'd recommend a top-dress of EWC when you flip to flower.  Just a thought
     
    And forget about trying to get the right ratios of NPK in your feedings by balancing the kelp, alfalfa, and whatever else, just right.  Don't think about NPK in organic.  All three (and tons more) are in Kelp and Alfalfa, and in good ratios.... just feed and leave 'em alone!
     
  13.  
    What's a botanical tea?  Do you have any resources on the topic to share?
     
  14.  
    Is this something you're suggesting just for his FFOF grow, or would you also recommend this for a grow using the easy organic soil mix?
     
  15.  
    An Actively Aerated Compost Tea (AACT) has either compost, EWC, or some sort of forest/plant debris to provide microorganisms.  You then add a carbohydrate to provide food to the microbes so their populations will go up.  Some people add other things (rock dust for fungal hyphae, kelp, etc), but compost/EWC and carbos are all that are necessary.  The purpose of this tea is to inoculate your soil with beneficial microorganisms.
     
    A Fermented Plant Extract is plant material and water with a lactobacilli culture introduced, such as EM-1 (or homemade).  This ferments the plant material and jump-starts the breakdown process so that the elements are more bio-available to the plant.  The purpose of this "tea" (concoction) is to provide elements (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, etc) to the soil and plant.
     
    The term "botanical teas" has been used in two separate ways.  One is anaerobic- putting plant material in water and letting it sit out behind your barn (anywhere far from your house... it smells!) in the sun for about 3-5 weeks.
     
    The other is aerobic- putting plant material in water and aerating it (usually with an air pump) for 18-36 hours.  I've taken to calling this method "nutrient tea" and the anaerobic method a "botanical tea."    
     
    Both methods deliver both elements and compounds..... haven't seen much discussing the differences between these last two methods.  I think it's just a matter of degree.... the first method will break the plant matter down more and thus deliver more of the compounds into the water.  In the second method, more of the compounds/elements are retained in the plant material (but certainly not all).  But I'd love to hear from someone else if they know more about the differences.
     
  16. #18 Gandalf_the_Green, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
     
    Top-dressing with EWC is often useful.... if your plant looks a bit N hungry it's a good way to feed 'em slowly.  But I recommended it especially for you, because the humus content of FFOF is low quality.  Meaning your soil could use an infusion of microbial life- which EWC provides (so does an AACT)
     
    Edit: AND I recommended it because FFOF nutes will run out, meaning the EWC will help provide a steady source of nutrients for your plant after the FF nutes are gone.
     

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