need some help in an argument

Discussion in 'Pandora's Box' started by cowofsteel, May 4, 2004.

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  1. I\'ve been discussing politics more and more since its inching closer to november and the election and one thing I keep hearing from the republicans I talk with is how we needed to get Saddam out because he was killing his own people (I\'d like to move on from the war, but of course none of them will let me :rolleyes: )

    It pisses me off because I know there are fucking tons of rulers that murder their own citizens and we don\'t do a damn thing about it. So what I\'d like is any rulers (past/present) you know of that killed their own people (not counting by sending to war, no matter how pointless it was)
  2. \'s a difficult one. If your friends tell you the prime motive for the war was helping the Iraqi people, they\'re clearly wrong.

    To be honest, I\'m totally against war, but a small percentage of me hoped someone could get rid of Hussein. Still I\'d prefered the Iraqi\'d managed it themselves.

    I don\'t know what arguments you want \'n what for. But the existance of other evil leaders doesn\'t justify not going against one of them. But since there are other unharmed rulers who still carry on their business without intervention from the US (or other countries), there had to be another reason for the US to intervene (to put it neutral) in Iraq. They had a different agenda.
  3. Skinner makes a good point, your argument should be that if anything the Iraqis should have liberated themselves. It\'s not our place or our duty to die for them. Not to mention that if this war keeps up we\'ll have killed more Iraqis than Saddam ever did.

    Bush said recently that \"...there are no more mass graves in Iraq...\", well, there are actually, because of us.

    And if these fellows like to consider themselves fiscal conservatives you should mention that the war (at last count) has cost 165 billion dollars. This huge bill isn\'t even included in Dubya\'s budget, meaning that even if this administration fixed the budget outright (something that Clinton did) there would still be a huge price tag for this war sitting in the background. And the war\'s not even a fourth of the way through by the Bush government\'s own estimates.
  4. The worst prize is the loss of human life. Can\'t be calculated in money.

  5. From the point of view of most pro wars people I know money is very important. I\'m trying to build an argument that would convince the kind of person that would care about the financial cost, which may end up hurting and ending a lot of lives in it\'s own right.
  6. I typed 20th century genocide into the google search and this is what I found. I know some of these dudes weren\'t \'rulers\' but they ended up massacring plenty of people. Hope some of these names help you out.

    Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1934-39) 13,000,000 (the purges)
    Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12,000,000 (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
    Mao Tze Dong (China, 1966-69) 11,000,000 (cultural revolution)
    Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5,000,000 (civilians WWII)
    Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000
    Kim Il Sung (North Korea, 1948-94) 1.6 million (purges and concentration camps)
    Menghitsu (Ethiopia, 1975-78) 1,500,000
    Ismail Enver (Turkey, 1915) 1,200,000
    Charles DeGaulle (Algeria, 1954-1962) 1,000,000
    Yakubu Gowon (Biafra, 1967-1970) 1,000,000
    Leonid Brezhnev (Afghanistan, 1979-1982) 900,000
    Jean Kambanda (Rwanda, 1994) 800,000
    Suharto (East Timor, 1976-98) 600,000
    Yahya Khan (Pakistan, 1971) vs Bangladesh 500,000
    Savimbi (Angola, 1975-2002) 400,000
    Mullah Omar (Afghanistan, 1986-2001) 400,000
    Idi Amin (Uganda, 1969-1979) 300,000
    Benito Mussolini (Ethiopia, 1936; Yugoslavia, WWII) 300,000
    Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire, 1965-97) ?
    Charles Taylor (Liberia, 1989-1996) 220,000
    Foday Sankoh (Sierra Leone, 1991-2000) 200,000
    Slobodan Milosevic (Yugoslavia, 1992-96) 180,000
    Michel Micombero (Burundi, 1972) 150,000
    Saddam Hussein (Iraq, 1987-88) 100,000
    Hassan Turabi (Sudan, 1989-1999) 100,000
    Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Centrafrica, 1966-79) ?
    Richard Nixon (Vietnam, 1969-1974) 70,000 (vietnamese civilians)
    Papa Doc Duvalier (Haiti, 1957-71) 60,000
    Hissene Habre (Chad, 1982-1990) 40,000
    Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 (dissidents executed)
    Francisco Franco (Spain) 30,000 (dissidents executed after the civil war)
    Lyndon Johnson (Vietnam, 1963-1968) 30,000
    Hafez Al-Assad (Syria, 1980-2000) 25,000
    Khomeini (Iran, 1979-89) 20,000
    Paul Koroma (Sierra Leone, 1997) 6,000
    Osama bin Laden (worldwide, 1991-2001) 4,000
    Augusto Pinochet (Chile, 1973) 3,000
    Efrain Rios Montt (Guatemala) 2,000
    Marcos (Philippines) ?
  7. wow, thanks guys, I completely forgot about this thread.... of course I agrued my heart out with the bush supporters and I even got one of them to change!!! He was just like \"no, I see what he saying, and that was really my only reason for liking Bush........ wait a minute! fuck bush!\"

    ... well not exactly like that but you get the picture :smoking:
  8. great link digi, thanks a ton

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