Nazis - Hitler - WWII

This thread is fucking sickening. If it were about any other race or religion I don't think it would stay open.

"Black Project..?"

 

When I discuss the slaughter of 100+ Million from the communist regimes of the world, I don't see you so upset? Why is it specifically the holocaust? If you're emotional about something, then leave and ignore the thread.

 

Once again get some facts. We looked. We looked many many many times. Many hundreds looked and the proof is all there. Native outlined them nicely but I guess Ancap Candy Land doesn't value actual fact.

"Black Project..?"

 

Yeah that about sums it up....

"Black Project..?"

 

Now you're catching on.

"Black Project..?"

 

1.”I've stated exactly what the United States holocaust memorial museum has stated: "there is no credible evidence the gas chambers were used to murder human beings"

1. They agree at that one camp it was not used and as my post pointed out even that is an issue of debate. The USHMM also states many times gas chambers were indeed used in various other camps. Since you are inclined to believe USHMM as a source considering you are using them to “refute” me (even though my sources shows at this specific camp gas chambers likely were not used and thus are not refuting anything I said). Here’s a clip from a USHMM article about how Nazis used gas to execute prisons of war, disabled people, and Jewish people. If this is not sufficient for you please explain what evidence would be sufficient for you to believe gas chambers were used and I will find it for you.

Gassing Operations

“The Nazis began experimenting with poison gas for the purpose of mass murder in late 1939 with the killing of patients with mental and physical disabilities (in the Euthanasia Program).

EUTHANASIA PROGRAM

A Nazi euphemism, "euthanasia" referred to the systematic killing of those Germans whom the Nazis deemed "unworthy of life" because of mental illness or physical disability.

Six gassing installations were established as part of the Euthanasia Program: Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar, Hartheim, and Sonnenstein. These killing centers used pure, chemically manufactured carbon monoxide gas.

GAS VANS

After the June 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union and Einsatzgruppe (mobile killing unit) mass shootings of civilians, the Nazis experimented with gas vans for mass killing. Gas vans were hermetically sealed trucks with engine exhaust diverted to the interior compartment. Use of gas vans began after Einsatzgruppe members complained of battle fatigue and mental anguish caused by shooting large numbers of women and children. Gassing also proved to be less costly. Einsatzgruppen (mobile killing units) gassed hundreds of thousands of people, mostly Jews, Roma (Gypsies), and mentally ill people.

KILLING CENTERS

Chelmno

In 1941, the SS concluded that the deportation of Jews to killing centers (to be gassed) was the most efficient way of achieving the "Final Solution". That same year, the Nazis opened the Chelmnocamp in Poland. Jews from the Lodz area of Poland and Roma were killed there in mobile gas vans.

Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka

In 1942, systematic mass killing in stationary gas chambers (with carbon monoxide gas generated by diesel engines) began at Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, all in Poland. As victims were "unloaded" from cattle cars, they were told that they had to be disinfected in "showers." The Nazi and Ukrainian guards sometimes shouted at and beat the victims, who were ordered to enter the "showers" with raised arms to allow as many people as possible to fit into the gas chambers. The tighter the gas chambers were packed, the faster the victims suffocated.

Auschwitz

The Nazis constantly searched for more efficient means of extermination. At the Auschwitz camp in Poland, they conducted experiments with Zyklon B (previously used for fumigation) by gassing some 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 ill prisoners in September 1941. Zyklon B pellets, converted to lethal gas when exposed to air. They proved the quickest gassing method and were chosen as the means of mass murder at Auschwitz.

At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.

CONCENTRATION CAMPS

Concentration camps like Stutthof, Mauthausen, Sachsenhausen, and Ravensbrueck, although not designed specifically as killing centers, also had gas chambers. The gas chambers were relatively small, constructed to kill those prisoners the Nazis deemed "unfit" to work. Most of these camps used Zyklon B as the killing agent in their gas chambers.

Further Reading

Müller, Filip, and Helmut Freitag. Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers. Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 1999.

Kogon, Eugen, Hermann Langbein, and Adalbert Rückerl, editors. Nazi Mass Murder: A Documentary History of the Use of Poison Gas. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1994.

Pressac, Jean-Claude. Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 1989.

Swiebocka, Teresa, editor. The Architecture of Crime: The "Central Camp Sauna" in Auschwitz II-Birkenau. Oswiecim: Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, 2001.”

2. “I notice you're restating exactly what i've sourced and appended "some historian" in the end, I'm not stating their is no credible evidence, that's the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum that made that claim, unless you have some new evidence that's unknown to USHMM then present said evidence. I think you're spin is merely to save space and attempt to push a narrative.”

2. Not even remotely true. The specific line you posted, which I can’t even find btw because it’s a dead link, says that historians believe spherically at Barrack x in Dachau the gas chambers constructed were not used for mass killings. They don’t say that the Nazis never used gas chambers to kill people and as you can see from the article I linked above there are many places where they do explicitly state that gas chambers were used to execute people in large numbers as part of the final solution. So I ask once again why do you believe these articles are not accurate. What sources do you take issue with? Do you not believe the way wirtness accounts of individuals who saw the gassing take place or the guards who participated? Do you not believe the internal documents were Nazi officials talked about setting up these gas chambers and what was the most effective way to kill large numbers of people as are real? Do you not believe the clear picture and video documentation of these gas chambers existing in various concentration camps? It seems you are purposely ignoring evidence or claiming the evidence is not reliable. So specially what evidence of the evidence I mentioned or the ones I mentioned in my link do you not believe?


3. “I mean weren't you the one that stated their was official Nazi memos that existed that showed Nazi Methodically plan for the final solution, when at Numbremberg trials no evidence was ever presented and thereafter. So I understand your need to push a context, but it doesn't explain these inconsistency you have.

3. Once again no inconsistency. You’re link from UHMM which agrees with all my links said that Dachau’s gas chambers were not used for mass executions. My links said several other camps had gas chambers which were used to murder people in large numbers. I actually stated that we’re inteneral Nazi memos showing they were actively engaging in murdering large numbers of Jews. These memos were presented at the trials along with thousands of hours of eye witness testimonies, admittance of guilt by Nazi officers, and physical evidence such as ashes of human remains, mass graves, and large collections of physical items which could have only come from murdering large groups of people and taking their belongings. Additionally we have evidence of gas chambers, ovens, and all sorts of nasty shit which has no purpose but to kill large groups of people. You keep saying things that are blatantly false and disproven if you would take five minutes to read secondary or primary sources. You clearly are not engaging in good faith as you haven’t even attempted to show why my claims are wrong. I’ve shown you time and time again sources which show why your claims are completely wrong.

4. Also David Irving. Really dude. That’s who you’re going to use as a source to refute my points. The dude who flirts with far right fascist and writes Hitler apologia for a living. You make it hard for me think you’re engaging in good faith when you cite dogshit like Irving who is a know holocaust denier and been shown to be a liar by courts which have a pretty high standard of evidence.

 

What are the inconsistencies? You’ve danced around explicitly stating what you believe of the mainstream record to be untrue. So far all I can gather is you think that gas chambers were never used which I’ve shown you is bullshit and that gas chambers were frequently used at several camps to kill people in large numbers. You’ve also claimed that no memos were presented at the Nuremberg trials which is once again complete garbage and historical revisionism. Many correspondents were presented showing their plans to round up Jews, use their labor, and kill them in large numbers.

 

You keep changing your tune. First it was there was no gassing at Dachau and now it’s gassing never was used to kill people in large numbers. So which is it?

 

Why do you keep saying what if we found out. We’ve looked into it and have pretty good evidence to believe the mainstream narrative is largely right. Are there details that are wrong or overblown I’m sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that Germany systematically murdered millions of Jews, and millions of other Europeans as part of their military expansion and part of their attempt to ethnically cleanse. Idk why you don’t open a book and read the evidence for yourself because it’s well documented. You keep pretending as if nobody has seriously looked into it when it’s one of the most studied eras of history and has insane levels of documentation. You can question it but when someone presents you clear evidence with primary sources refuting your claim and your response is to ignore it it’s hard to think you’re engaging with it in an intellectually honest way. Especially when you promote scumbag Holocaust denier types like David Irving who are clearly anti semetic and not interested in looking at the issue objectively but rather looking to validate their conspiracy theories. This is what landrafe is doing which is making it hard for me to think he is really engaging in an honest way. Notice how first he just refutes that dachau used gas chambers to kill people and this claim evolved to gas chambers were never used to kill people. His tactics remind me of a lot of holocaust denier types who hide their power levels and slowly expand their claims as a means to bring along people who may have rejected their claims if they started out so extreme.

 

Norse can you please state what you think is wrong about the current historical narrative we have? Why do you think this is wronf? What pieces of evidence used to validate this narrative are wrong or not sufficient in your opinion? You keep saying that you are seriously seeking answers but why do you think the current answers are not sufficient. You haven’t really tangibly said what you believe is innacuraye so it’s hard for me to show the evidence you are looking for

 

I haven't change my tune, every post I made I quoted the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Please don't lie about my position to satisfy your ego. lol, Native best beleive me you won't last and you'll just look foolish lmao.
"there is no credible evidence that gas chambers were used to murders human beings."

that's not my words that's the USHMM, yes I understand you look foolish and you're attempting to save face, but you need to understand, if you're disagreement with this statement, best write a letter to:

100 Raoul Wallenberg Pl SW, Washington, DC 20024
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Address


LMAO!!!!!

 

Classical Strawman Argument, I don't normally point that out, but it's so obvious.

I was speaking specifically in terms of Dachau Concentration Camp. You're attempting to argue and generalized all concentration camp in a moment to save face. You're ego is too big, to acknowledge that i'm correct in sourcing the USHMM. So you're outright lying and straw-man argument to save face. Your pride is a bit too big, but let's be honest, why do you have pride? I've effectively proven you incorrect on multiple debates. This is outright disrespectful.

1) I'm directly referencing Dachau Concentration Camp
2) I've effectively proved my point and provided credible sources supporting my claims.
3) You're generalizing claming i'm referring to all, which is not true.

-- At this point i've lost any integrity in an intellectual debate, as you've been caught being misleading in arguing attempting to straw-man a general all camps to my source on specifc Dachau Concentration Camp.



Inconsistency #1:
@jerry111165 made a reference in context to Dachau and saying to the effect of "seeing all those people gassed at Dachau"

I simply pointed out a historical inaccuracy about that statement giving the USHMM specifically their is no creditable evidence of gassing of human beings occurred at Dachau.

Then you restated my original point and appended well small groups for testing, which once again is a direct contradiction to the USHMM statements.




Inconsistency #2:
Context: You informing everyone the Nazi had official documentation of the final solution.

There are no official Nazi Memo that ordered the final solutions, these are exactly the inconsistancity i'm articulating; thank you for proving my point!



SRC:The "Final Solution" https://www.ushmm.org|/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007704

Inconsistency #3:

Once again thank you, for proving my point.




The Nuremberg Trials (part 2)
The institute of historical review cites:

 

No one is taking about the other camps,



1) @jerry111165 made a comment about being at dachau concentration camp and imagining withness all those people gassed.

2) I pointed out and sourced USHMM article and quotes pointing that out to be false.

3) You interjected and went on at tangent about:
- Gassing at dachau concentration camp
- Implied Nazi Official Document Final Solutions
- Cited Confessions at Nuremberg

I've effectively cross examined those evidence and pointed out inconsistencies:

1) There is no credible evidence of gassing at dachau concentration camp according to USHMM
2) Provided statements from USHMM indicating there is no document that exist detailing the final solutions
3) Provided the reality of the confessions as they were under duress being tortured.


You made multiple long post in which you support my argument and made claims of "well small groups were being used for testing" which still is invalid according to USHMM.

You then made accusations that I'm incorrect because gassing occurred in majority of camps. I don't know about other camps as i haven't researched those as of yet, and I never mentioned auschwitz concentration camp; so that's exact proof you're generalizing to save face.

All in all, I haven't changed my position, I've was clever enough to keep posting that screenshot with the quotes from USHMM for the majority of my post, anticipating the desperation when you're about to check mate in a debate.




.
.
.
Check Mate.


I strongly encourage you to explore ideas outside the realm of a 7th grade social studies book and humble yourself perhaps you can grow intellectually, you have a great determination, but your inability to challenge that status quo is why i'm always able to find the flaws in your logic. Too Predictable.

 

The evidence you're showing is garbage. I've pointed flaws in what you've cited. I'm not trying to be difficult, but i'm telling you, we have some inconsistencies with what's been told about the holocaust. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but what ever we were told it's becoming apparent the more I look into this, beyond a glance, i'm notice alot of inaccuracies.

 

@landrace
Do you deny that this morning you said this?

“I've stated exactly what the United States holocaust memorial museum has stated: "there is no credible evidence the gas chambers were used to murder human beings"
I don’t know how I’m supposed to read that statement other than to think you’re claiming gas chambers were never used to murder human beings in any camps. It’s not as if you said there is no credible evidence gas chambers were never used to kill people specifically in Dachau and though you may have meant to say that it’s very hard to get that from this quote. Yes the context in a previous post made this clear but in the context of the post I was responding to it was not clear so my apologies if I misrepresented your position. So I have to ask becuase it’s still not clear. Do you believe that in other camps besides Dachau (we both agree they weren’t used in Dachau) gas chambers were used to kill people. The quote which you actually are misquoting from the USHMM says gas chambers weren’t used in barrack x in Dachau. It doesn’t say gas chambers weren’t used in other camps

 

Yes, I'm speaking in context to dachau concentration camp. I even sourced the USHMM Dachao concentration camp article; LMFAO

If you read the highlighted screenshot and you look 3 sentence down it even states "Dachau Prisoners" therefore eliminating any confusion.





Stop lying you're wrong and you're trying to take me out of context, but you can't I haven't stated anything; I just quoted the USHMM. So You're incorrect. Just admit you're wrong.

Let's See:

1) You've attempted to spin the narrative.
2) Then you attempted to Generalized (Strawman)
3) Now you're attempting to take me out of Context.
4) What's next?

you're well aware it's just prolonging your suffering lmao. You're wrong. Accept it.