Discussion in 'Pandora's Box' started by travilanche, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. What is "natural"?

    Vicious and I were discussing this in another thread, and rather than continue to derail that one, we both agreed it would be better to start a new thread dedicated to the topic.

    I personally feel that everything that exists, or occurs is natural. Even if it is man made, as man is a part of nature, and so everything man creates is also natural.

    Bees make hives, beavers make dams, birds make nests, none of which would exist without the creative ingenuity of those creatures. But no one would argue (I don't think) that those objects are not a part of nature. Those animals add A and B together to make C. Humans do the same thing, but our creations are more complex, because we are more complex animals. But nature evolved us to have that creative complexity, and therefore everything man creates or does is still natural.

    The idea of something man made being "unnatural" is based on the fallacy that man is separate from nature...something special. Which is not true.

    So there really is no such thing as "unnatural". It is just a buzz word used to discredit things that people don't like or don't understand.

  2. Copy of my most recent response.
    Man can still make something natural but not everything made is natural. Silicone is in no way natural, nor are computers or art. I'm not separating people from nature or saying we are a special entity. The definition of natural is this; existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind; not having any extra substances or chemicals added: not containing anything artificial.
    Nearly every dictionary specifically mentions not made by humans in this context. Your applying your own definition to a word that most people would not agree with. There is nothing natural about nuclear energy or splitting atoms.
    Natural means that it is made by the earth or is part of the earth. And yes everything is made out of natural things, but the fact that we have to produce these things make them unnatural. You can apply any definition to any word you want to make it seem rational but that doesn't change its accountability. Your argument would devaluate the meaning of the word 'natural' to the point of meaninglessness. 'Natural' would come to mean 'real', and it doesn't.
  3. Well, naturally, 'natural' comes from the word 'nature.'
    By disassociating it from anything man-made, it just proves
    that humans believe that they are not natural themselves, and
    anything created by mankind is unnatural.
  4. Exactly. Which is just plain not true. Like I said, bee hives wouldn't exist if bees didn't create them out of other naturally occurring objects. But no one would say that bee hives are unnatural. So why is silicone? If it is just because it is made by man, then you are separating man from nature, and man is not in reality separate from nature. Just a very complex part of nature. Self awareness does not separate a species from nature, and everything that species makes is therefore natural...just like bee hives.
  5. Honestly I just think people should stop using "natural" or "unnatural" as if they are worthwhile arguments for or against anything :hide: 
    Bees are not man-made. do you see the circle here? anything NOT
    MAN MADE is natural. as everything in nature existed before MAN did.
    whether you believe in the bible or believe in science, they both teach
    the same things. Everything came first, and somewhere along the way
    came man. I'm not here to discuss religion, there are threads and sections
    for that already, so I digress. Bees are natural. they make honeycombs, which
    make honeycombs natural. They produce honey, which is natural. They get
    pollen from flowers, which are natural. catching the drift here?
  7. Its not separating man from nature because man can still make natural things. Its the method in which it is produced. A beehive or a beaver's dam is still natural because they are directly manipulating nature with some stuff from their body to supplement. Something produced synthetically or artificially is just that even if all of its components are found in nature.
    We're not arguing that natural or unnatural is positive or negative, neither for nor against but what is natural. This is philosophical, not political.
  9. What is man made has been synthesized into an unnatural state.

    It's no longer unaltered.

    To consider everything man-made, "natural" is to remove all distinction from the word.
  10. This is really my main point. Political groups love to use the term "unnatural" to to hat on things they don't like or don't understand. Like homosexuality. They say "homosexuality is unnatural because it is not found in nature!" Well...if it is found within the human species then it is indeed found in nature. Never mind the fact that most species exhibit homosexual behavior. But it doesn't have to be observed in other species to be "natural", since humans are still a part of nature. A very, very complex part of nature.

    I stand by my statement that if it exists,cor occurs then it is natural. "Unnatural" is not a thing.
  11. I am saying the word itself is obsolete. It is from a bygone era where people believed they were a separate entity and special. Now we know that is not the case.
    Just because a monkey can use sign language doesn't mean the fucker
    is going to teach quantum physics at harvard! Mimicking something does
    not make it that same. if man mimics what NATURALLY OCCURS in nature,
    he is, in turn, making it unnatural by modifying it in any way, shape or form.
    i don't see what's so hard to grasp here!
  13. #13 Vicious, Nov 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2014
    The definition of a word apparently. Is there any reason you type like that? Its a pain to read. Its very unnatural.
    I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make, even with all the caps and underline. You just said man mimicking what naturally occurs and modifying it makes it unnatural.
  14. We are only doing the same thing but on a far more complex level. Anything created synthetically is still created from natural materials using natural processes. It's not like we are creating new matter out of nothing. Merely manipulating atoms to make them do what we want them to do, because we are smart as fuck. Well...compared to other animals on earth anyway.

    It is all still natural.
    It's called format, if you have a problem reading then maybe you
    need to upgrade your crap-system bud.
  16. #16 *guest, Nov 18, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
    Still on slightly different pages, eh? :p
    I mean I see where both sides are coming from. What's "unnatural" about what humans make versus what animals make? What makes a beaver dam natural and a man-made bridge unnatural? 
    I don't know, I'm drunk and this is kind of mindfucking me right now to be honest. Are humans not part of nature somehow? If we were still making bridges out of fallen logs, would it be natural? But when we use materials we've created, still from nature in one way or another, it's unnatural? 
    Kind of a trip right now :laughing:
    I will say I don't think things like feelings or sexuality should be labelled as unnatural, it serves no purpose since "unnatural" shouldn't be inherently bad anyway.
    I don't know, I probably didn't make a lot of sense here huh? I'll try drinking more, see how that works. 
  17. I don't see what's so hard to grasp either. Man is part of nature. So anything made by man is natural. If we were creating matter out of thin air, then that might could be considered unnatural.
    Maybe you should take it down a notch. You're starting to sound heated. Last I checked I didn't need to manually format my shit, maybe you need to upgrade.
    I mean it is kind of strange to read, makes your brain pause in odd places. No offense, just saying. :p 

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