Mycorrhizae

LD,
If you do get that puppy, send a personal message my way. I train dogs for a living. I would love an opportunity to share some of my expertise with you. I definitely owe you 1 for all the knowledge I've picked up here.

 

MI W

Thanks for the offer! As a child I was around Irish Setters. My parents had one of the line from the dogs used in the Disney movie "Big Red"

I grew up around AKC dog shows and attended Westminster about 6 times. My parents later expanded their kennels to include both the English Setters and Gordon Setters. The English Setters remain one of my favorite breeds - that and Labrador Retrievers of course! LOL

When I lived in Western Kentucky another lifetime ago I did quite of bird hunting along the Mississippi Flyway. Member of Ducks Unlimited, blah, blah, blah - lots of good memories bird hunting with friends along the western branch of the Ohio River about 75 miles from its confluence with the Mississippi River. Lots of farmland in that area that drew lots of ducks and geese during the season.

What breeds do you like working with for field trials?

LD

 

I don't do field trials. I don't hunt so I've never got into that type of training. Im kind of a softy when it comes to killing things. I do advanced obedience and dabble in schutzund (attack dogs) work. My specialization is in aggression. I take abused, troubled dogs and turn them into working dogs or in some cases family pets. As far as my favorite hunting breed, it would have to be the labrador. There really is no other dog that is as well rounded as a lab. They can do anything. Hunting, scent detection, obedience, agility, service dog, family pet. Not so hot in the schutzund ring though.

Im really a border collie guy though

 

I'm glad that you mentioned endo mycorrhizae because I was gonna ask which one I was supposed to use but didn't want to look stupid. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I assumed that the reasoning for adding the mycorrhizae at the end of the tea was because of how fragile of an organism it is. But like I said it was just an assumption.

 

I think I recall reading that certain microorganisms (fungal?) need to be in touch with roots within 24 hours of being "woke up" (by the tea making) or else they die (possibly go dormant?).

I could be wrong though.

 

So here are some questions/answers from this thread:

http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/951115-liquid-kelp-extraction-3.html#post13020757

Seemed to me that the subject matter was more appropriate for this thread.

Read most of the faq's, thanks for that link.

So endo spores do not germinate until in contact with root exudates? I've heard this a few times, but have also seen images of myco hyphae, supposedly in suspension. Meaning they were growing and apparently without roots present? Maybe it was some other sort of fungi I saw. I'll try to recheck my research.

Oh! Found this! Arbuscular mycorrhiza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps this is one reason why a cover crop of clover is ideal for no till, multi cycle container growing. Providing root exudates.

The whole topic of annuals and endo mycos is interesting. Researchers say they are important, yet others say they don't have time to establish. I'm guessing here that in the outdoors, there is already an established myco network and when a plant puts out roots, it just gets hooked up to that. However that doesn't expain areas where the ground freezes, plants die off, then meadows develop in the summer.

From the same wiki link above:

So my instinct to have a clover cover crop in place before I plant my cannabis seems to be spot on.

I'm suspecting that endo mycos develop faster than folks think, so that they are useful for cannabis, even if only growing one cycle. Perhaps the key is not to have to much P.

From the link provided by Chunk baby.

and from the wiki link above:

So whether or not cannabis can use endo mycos (it's my guess they can as they have evolved to do so), the endo mycos do improve soil texture and help your plant to survive drought conditions (oops, I forgot to water) better.

Not to be pedantic but;

... but VAM's are now called AM's.

Mycorrhiza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, from the first wiki link above;

 

As anyone who has studied Living Soil topics knows, it's pretty brutal in the micro organism level eco systems. Eat and be eaten. As gardners, we create environments conducive to this brutal existence.

The fungi are especially vicious.

 

Interesting article in ACRES Magazine on mycos. Two of the three authors are PhD's (one being Dr Mike). A lot of it is a bit old hat and applies to large scale farming. I found this part interesting though.

It's been mentioned that high levels of P can hinder mycos from flourishing in the rhizosphere. According to the article, it's the over abundance of readily available P that causes this. P in the form of soft rock phosphates, manure, humates, fish fertilizers or kelp, are not problematic.

Another interesting point is the need to inoculate asap. In farming they like to do this by treating the seeds with a myco formula (liquid or powder) or by treating the soil nearby, so that the roots become inoculated once they grow into this zone.

 

WeeDroid

Dr. Mike Amaranthus is referring to the work of Dr. Robert G. Linderman at the ARS-Oregon State University.

Dr. Linderman's work is often cited but he seldom gets the credit. He has done more in researching mycorrhizal fungi in the horticulture environment that any other single researcher.

He was at the horticulture trade show last summer and was his usual friendly self. He was conducting seminars on effectively using these spores.

HTH

LD

 

Nice one LD! Thanks so much for that.

It's mentioned in the article that Dr Mike has published over 80 (probably means 81 then) research papers on mycos. As such he doesn't seem to be a slouch in this field.

One of the other authors (the non PhD) is a partner of Dr Mikes, Larry Simpson, director of education and training for Mycorrhizal Applications Inc. (Dr Mikes company).

Dr. Nick Malajczuk is the other author. He appears to be an expert on truffles and mycos.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKjBIBBAL8&feature=related]Cordyceps: attack of the killer fungi - Planet Earth Attenborough BBC wildlife - YouTube[/ame]

 

does anyone know of any conflicts that might exist between species of mycos such that introducing multiple strains (?) one strain/species might dominate the environment and the others are destroyed? there is an epic battle of life and death that occurs in the soil and I wonder if we somehow help or hinder that by our practices.

am also curious if anyone has tried to colonize their own mycos such as that might be done by using the root system of a harvested grow in which mycos were used, and following one of the protocols for colonizing mycos.

thanks for an opinion

 

According to MM (and he of anyone here would know) there are one or two endo mycos that are particularly good for plants like cannabis. Sorry I don't have the names real handy.

The thing about myco networks is that you want them established (ideally) before your cannabis is there. But, they don't grow without roots. To deal with this, I'll be planting white clover as a cover crop prior to my cannabis. Two good things, it helps to facilitate the mycos I want, getting th enetwork established, and it fixes nitrogen in the soil.

Ahhh, found it. You want these two.

Endomycorrhizal fungi: Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae,

 

Im noticing a lack in real understanding of Mycorrhizae. There are two main catagories and not all Mycorrhizae give more than they take.

In a study done to understand Mocorrhizae and the effects that nutrient levels can have on them, it was found that a certain type of VAM (Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizae) AKA endo-Mycorrhizae can be preferred in soils with high nutrient levels that take more from the plants than they provide. Meaning they consume more sugars from the roots and don't give back much in the way of nutrients.

I believe that concentrating on growing the plan is in contradiction to Organic growing. You should be more interested on taking good care of the soil, and let the soil take care of your plants. Keep good moister content, give plenty of organic matter such as fish bone, feather meal, guano (if you really want to) etc... Mycorrizae can be found in soils everywhere. Some people believe that synthetic nutrients can kill it off. Although many resent study's show that its doesn't kill off mycorrizae, but it does do it some harm and can cause other mycorrizae to colonize that can and do reduce yields.

Bacteria, which was also brought up, are great for many services. You can pick up bacteria in any bag of soil weather organic or not. With organic media, the odds of having a more robust amount of soil fauna are more likely than with synthetic counterparts. Microbes in the soil many work in the production of Nitrates for nitrogen gasses, which with some plant species create what is known as root nodules that can make a nice little home for this type of bacteria. Species that do that come from the legume family and range from tall trees like black locus all the way to some produce plants such as soy beans and even the pretty flowering plants like lupines.

Another fact that tends to be overlooked time and time again are your micro nutrients. which tend to be released from the soil by CO2 that is produced in the root system. Carbonic acids aid in the release of Cations from the soil making them water soluble and available for absorption into the roots of the plants. In other words. O2 is good for roots as much as CO2 is good for them. So keeping a consistent moister level that can allow for gas exchange is helpful for both the bateria, and roots combined.

Mycorrizae being a fungi, dislikes extremes in water saturation, and prefers good access to Oxygen for healthy growth. Also, sulfur and Mycorrizae don't tend to agree very well so if you enjoy adding Molasses to your soil make sure it is Unsulfured Blackstrap Molasses.

Weather or not Mycorrizae can consume the sugars from molasses, is something I would like to learn more about. I do know that the Bacteria love it and go crazy for it. I even read about some studies being conducted on whether or not the plant can benefit from the sugars in molasses directly. I don't have a strong enough understanding on that matter either but there may be some info on Jstor or EBCOhost that could be researched further.

So as far as I am concerned, adding mycorrizae sounds like a waste of money. If you have a good healthy soil then Mycorrizae will find its way into that soil regardless. If you really feel compelled on adding some that step outside and go over to the forest edge and move some lead matter to the side grab a handful of soil and you will have all the mycorrizae spores you'll ever need. Its a fungus that is found all over the planet and should not be looked at as if it were some rare special orchid, that is seemingly unobtainable.

As a added note on healthy soil, give aeropots, growbags or any fabric type pot a try. Overwatering is nearly impossible and they really aid in producing healthy soil!!! IMO I have not had better results with plastic or clay pots. Frabic pots are truly amazing and if you are really interested on Mycorrizae, then fabric seems to be the best option. Some studies have shown that Mycorrizae has a hard time cultivating in an environment such as those produced by plastic pots. So unless your outdoors growing in the ground I would suggest a fabric style pot.

 

On the topic of whether or not the mycorrizae develops quick enough. Simply put, once the seed produces a root, the spores pop and go to town with the plant. Some mycorrizae do take awhile but those tend to be ecto mycorrizae not endo and are mainly used with woody trees, shurbs and vines not annual or perennial plants which use different stains all together.

Sorry about the poor spelling and grammar. Never was good at writing even after 8 years of college with numerous reports. But reading journal articles, lab work, math, plant identification, and art are all things that I am Badass at doing.

 

You have certainly read different studies than I. By the way it is mycorrhizal fungi. Mychorrhizae is plural for the symbiotic relationship formed.

Gathering soil from a forest to infect cannabis plants with mycorrhizal will garner you mostly ectomycorrhizal fungi/spores which does not (according to current science) colonize cannabis, grass or vegetables.

Please read a little more prior to 'teaching'
http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-...ailers-organic-amendments-6.html#post13289808 post 83 & 85
'Noticing a lack of understanding'


Most ectomycorrhizal fungi spores are much easier to sprout than endomycohhizal fungi spores. They can easily be sprouted even in ACT as they (mostly) do not require root contact to sprout. e.g. puffballs.

 

Not in this forum. If so, please point out specific instances rather than making broad assertions. I also find the your highlighted/bold statement quoted below, funny compared to your statement above (especially with MicrobeMans comment),

Given the current nomenclature that I quoted above (post 47):

However your vague assertion (which AM's is what I am wondering) that AM's may take more from plants than they give, in high nutrient soils has some basis in reality according to my research, but is worded poorly.

It's been reported that in soils with readily accessible P, AM activity is diminished, leading to a loss of benefits of having AM's available to the plant roots. See post 49 above this post.

Also;

we have many posts here on how to culture bacteria and beneficial fungi. My suggestion to you is to lurk here a bit more. Especially given the large number of us here who use fabric pots for growing and composting.

There area few folks around here who feel the same way. Cannabis and endo mycos are a largely unexplored area. However post 54 above shows what many of our learned members here think are helpful.

In addition, according to research I'm mentioned above, what seems to be important is getting your plants tapped into a endo myco network asap. What I plan to do is (and again, I've explained this before, you really should read this entire thread) is grow a cover crop of white clover, which will then not only fix nitrogen in my soil (this is an indoor grow) it will help to get the endo myco network already established, so that when I transplant my plants into the flower room soil, they can tap into the network already established, rather than waiting to grow out a fresh network.

Btw, have you read Teaming With Microbes yet?

 

Good reading?

 

Here is an interesting side note and experiment from http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20090806/gw1. Apparently myco spores survive very well without roots. Thanks to MM for the link!