So I've been considering inoculating my plants with Glomus mosseae, an arbuscular mycorrhizae, but everywhere I look myco providers list multiple species in their products. I cant find a single species mix anywhere and was wondering if anyone here knew of a single species myco product out there? Or if anyone knows how to isolate a specific fungal strain from colonized roots? To explain, I understand why there are multiple species of mycos in inoculant bags, so growers can get the cumulative benefits, but considering I want to grow outdoors having multiple species seems like it would just breed competition. My goal is to establish a Common Mycorrhizal Network in which all plants eventually become connected through their root structures by the myco web. If I have 9 or more species of mycos then in theory there would be multiple small CMNs ( common mycorrhizal networks) instead of on large one. Hence the reason for finding an innocent for a single species as opposed to multiple. With one large CMN plants on the other side of the plot will still be connected to their most distant neighbors and so could communicated over much larger distances than if there were multiple competing CMNs in the soil.
Mycorrhizae attachments are specific between myco strain and plant. In other words, mycorrhizae cant really compete because each strain only connects to certain plants, and vise versa.
I suppose competition isn't the best word. My main concern is that they would interfere with creating a common network as networks can only be linked together by mycorrhizae of the same species. If you have multiple species colonizing the plants I dont know if they will all be able to link together. And I would have to disagree, there are many studies that show a single plant can have multiple mycorrhizal connections, and mycorrhizae have been shown to connect multiple species of plants into the same network. Glomus mosseae, the one I'm interested in, has been found on three continents and can form symbiotic connections with almost any plant. They're not very specific at all. Source: Google Scholar
i think you would have a problem right off the bat if you're thinking you could isolate your desired mycos if you're planting outside. arent there ~150 different species already pretty much everywhere under our feet? i appreciate your hypothesis but how are said mycos networks going to find each other? dont the hyphae threads grow from the plant root outward? it seems to me that in order for the network to connect then the roots from each plant would have to intertwine to make this happen. yes/no? we are talking about microscopic critters here. i would think 10 feet of movement for a myco might be equivalent to a human traveling to mars and back. iow, it would take a minute or two. cannabis is an annual plant. how long do you plan on growing these?
So I plan to plant along the lines of a Permaculture design. I want to mix in perennials such as lemon balm, oregano, chives, comfrey, and so on so that theres a place for the mycos to retreat to during winter after the annuals are harvested. I also plan to have peppers intercropped in for the root benefits, and pole beans where I can fit them. You are correct mycelia dont expand much, but with close intercropping I believe a common network could be formed by the time flowering comes around which is when you need the most nutrients anyway. Which is another reason I need a mycorrhizal species that isnt specific so that it can form a symbiotic link with all the different species of plants I want to plant. As far as a time line goes I haven't been able to find much on mycorrhizal growth rates, but I did find one study where they formed a common mycorrhizal network between sorghum and flax plants where if you look at the materials and methods section of the study it states, "All treatments were repeated four times. A total of 32 pots was prepared. Shoots, roots, and stems were harvested separately, 12wk after inoculation." Unfortunately it doesn't state how close the plants were to each other after transplant from the potted cultures. But in my design the mycorrhizae shouldn't have to travel more than two ft. And 12 weeks seems to show that the connections will be made by the time flowering comes around. As for the native species already in the soil, it's a a bit of a gamble. The only assurance I have is that I'm planting in virgin soil so theres no preexisting agricultural inputs. I'm hoping that the native species will have a harder time colonizing the non native plants I'm introducing and so give my preferred species of mycos a jump start. If not it could take much longer to establish a network. Here's a link to the study if you'e interested, they were satisfying phosphorus uptake and how the CMN affected it. Google Scholar
Yes, pretty much any myco that can colonize plant roots falls under endo mycorrhizae. Ecto mycorrhizae solely colonize tree species if I'm correct. So all the Glomus species are endo mycos. Oh yes, its interesting because different mycos are better at certain jobs such as nutrient acquisition or water uptake. The argument for multiple species inoculation champions that having multiple species results in a synergistic effect where you can get all the benefits without as many of the drawbacks of a single species. And this may be true if you're growing in pots, which is why so many companies have innoculant mixes of 4 or more species of endo mycorrhizae. Lol and many companies also include ectomycorhizae because it looks like you're getting a better deal, even though they're useless. But since I want to plant outdoors I dont think I'll get those same benefits, I could be wrong though. I'm going to be planting test plots here in two weeks if all goes well. Here's a good article explaining it. Google Scholar As an update, I did finally find a single species myco innoculant. Great White has a granular myco innoculant containing solely Glomus Intraradices. It just took me a few hours of searching to find it.
@Green_Devil are you familiar with the work of dr. mike amaranthus? i can't say he "wrote the book" on mycos but he has published over 70 research papers on the subject. i'll go out on a limb here and suggest that his work is what got cannabis enthusiasts interested in mycos and at one point in the recent past his company About - Mycorrhizal Applications, LLC was supplying probably 99% of all the myco found in prepackaged options at the grow stores. and then mycos became "the thing" to have for all cannabis growers, or so it seems. they are a fascinating species and thankfully there are academics at the PhD level bringing this valuable info to us all. check him and his company out. there are plenty of references in the many bibliographies of his and others published works. good fortune with your critical thinking and experiment(s). cheers!
There is a balance that needs to happen. Typically poorer soil and conditions, have more mycorrihazael growth, while in a perfect set of conditions, the mycos don't do much because the exudates in the plants rhizosphere aren't calling for much. There is a lot of research that has been performed along these lines with respect to P. A good supply of P, and the mycos aren't told by the plant to get to work. That's why when using mycos, a low nutrient seed starter is used, so the plant signals the mycos to get established early on. Its a great topic, and I like your thinking. I would also look into using N fixing bacteria in your permaculture design, and incorporate plants with known N fixing bacteria relationships. Keep us posted on your progress. With the type of stuff you are doing, it often works out excellent, even if 'we' are wrong or not quite sure why they work so well. Its a pretty big picture, with lots of tiny actors. Its hard to go wrong when you help nature, help nature. cheers os
My main issue is finding N fixers that wont shade out my other plants. I'll just be doing a few test plots this year, so I'm thinking I'll put pole beans along the north side, they're all sprouted in Dixie cups ready to be transplanted. I was considering red clover because they're so low growing, but then I read that they are susceptible to spider mites and I dont want to accidentally make a trap crop.
How about peas as well. There is a pea hybrid out there know called "peas in pot" (burpee seeds I think) that could be neat to work with on you project. cheers os
Yea that’s what ive always read and heard that endos colonize on roots and ectos just colonize on material within the soil. Seeing a lot of soil products that advertise they are innoculated with mycos, but if its not sprinkled directly on roots how effective is it? I dont see the need to have it in the soil when im already sprinkling it on roots at transplant. Feel like its a marketing ploy. Sent from my iPhone using Grasscity Forum
You might look into Azospirillum brasilense for N. For what it's worth, this is a write up from Tim Wilson on Mycorrhizal fungi: I am beginning this thread in an effort to clear up some of the misconceptions which have been circulating concerning mycorrhizal fungi and to point out some facts, pertaining to its usefulness. This is done to the best of my ability and knowledge and as in all things, I can be wrong or there can be information not yet available. I am completely open to correction, input and questions. Because this forum deals with the cultivation of Cannabis (hemp), I will refrain from spending a lot of time on mycorrhizal fungi other than endomycorrhizal. Briefly ectomycorrhizal fungi predominantly form associations with certain types of trees. An example of this is truffles which form symbiotic, mutualistic associations with trees such as Hazel Nut, Holly Oak and English Oak. In the ‘ecto’ group there is a sub-group which is referred to as ectendomycorrhizal fungi. It is merely a description for fungi which displays both ecto & endo traits. [outside & inside] Typically ectomycorrhizal fungal hyphae surround and encapsulate the roots of the plant they are colonizing and exchange nutrients by proximity, while endomycorrhizal fungal hyphae enter the cells of the roots to exchange nutrients. Fungal hyphae are microscopic strands which grow from fungal spores, hyphal complexes and mushrooms. Many of them combine to create fungal mycelia, visible to the human eye. Two sub-groups of endomycorrhizal fungi are Arbuscular Mycorrhizal fungi (the most common and what we are concerned with here) and Ericoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. In the latter there are two additional sub-groups Arbutoid Endomycorrhizal fungi and Monotropoid Endomycorrhizal fungi. There is no current research I know of indicating that these are of value in supporting the growth of cannabis/hemp. For those interested in exploring this further here is some excellent information compiled by a student. The biology of mycorrhizas home page There is some research indicating that there is another type of fungi which may be mycorrhizal with plants. It is labeled ‘dark septate endophyte(s)’. It is my hypothesis that some of the species of fungi imperfecti grown out of [vermi]compost into compost tea are this type of fungi but that is yet to be researched. [the term ‘fungi imperfecti’ is used in this case to describe species of fungi lacking a (so far discovered) sexual stage and typical fruiting body] The word mycorrhiza has been tossed around willy nilly and there has been enough money ass hype spewed to choke a hundred horses. Mycorrhiza is not the fungi. It is the word used to describe the symbiosis or mutualistic association between root and fungi. Mycorrhizae is plural of this. The term to describe the type of fungi itself is mycorrhizal fungi. We all know that there is a plethora of products on the market with super attractive labeling and names. Super Ecto Screaming Eagle Myco, is fictional but representative of the crap one is confronted with. In reality if you are serious about getting endomycorrhizal fungi to colonize the roots of your plants you should know that, according to current science of which I am aware, there are only two known endomycorrhizal fungi species which colonize the roots of cannabis/hemp. They are Glomus Intraradices and Glomus Mosseae. If you are looking for the maximum potential to colonize roots of this species, your chances go up with the higher spore/propagule count per gram. Unless you have a mix specifically formulated I know of no product which includes only these two fungal species. Because Intraradices has been shown (through studies) to be a relatively easy colonizer of most endo-type plants world wide, it is logical to consider using it as a stand alone mycorrhizal inoculant (if you live in North America), because; 1/ It is produced in North America 2/ one can get (in bulk) powder based products at a spore/propagule count of 3200 per gram 1,452,800 per pound or a liquid product at 2,000,000 spores/propagules per gram (available as agricultural products > Increase your yield with MYKE® PRO mycorrhizae ). To get Glomus Mosseae at such densities would be very challenging. [I’m hoping that this will be available in smaller packages in 2012, at least higher than 200 spores/gram] Your best bet to get colonization is to apply the spores to the seeds or prepared cutting and/or the roots at planting time. There are apparently some studies showing that it can take up to 6 weeks for the full benefits of infection to be measurable which has led some to conclude that endomycorrhizal fungi is not that useful in the normally fast paced growth 'pattern' of indoor grown cannabis. This is by all means not even close to being 100% factual. I have yet to satisfy myself of this issue one way or the other, having read some studies indicating early infection/colonization. [I will attempt to update the thread later if I learn something relevant to this] The foregoing is not intended to imply that there are only two types of fungi which will ever associate with cannabis. Far from it. There are many species of mycorrhizal fungi, yet unidentified and as usual scientists are only scraping the surface in the research in this area. There may well be fungal species growing in the field behind your house which are indigenous endomycorrhizal fungi (or dark septate endophytes or…?) which may associate with cannabis/hemp just fine. What I have outlined is simply your most logical route to success if you are going to buy the spores. The following is a post by Eco I copied from the other thread which nicely outlines the mycorrhizal species available on the market. I’ve included the post which appeared prior to his as well for cohesiveness. Posted by Ccoastal; “That’s like saying oxycodone and percocet are the same thing for having the same ingredients. It’s all about the formulation. “ Posted by Eco12; “If you’re talking about mycos, it’s not necessarily accurate. It really comes down to spore count (propagules in many cases here in the US), and types of mycos. The BioAg VAM contains 7 different myco species, with g. intraradices making up the majority of it. Redirect Notice The RTI product (Mykos) contains glomus intraradices at 80 spores per CC. The BioAg VAM contains 104 propagules per gram. Got this from Dr. Mike: Glomus mosseae Glomus mosseae is one of the most researched and widely distributed endomycorrhizal fungi. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. mosseae • Increased Nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) uptake • Enzyme activity increases access micro nutrients • Protects roots • Stimulates root development • Improved performance of woody perennials • Keeps root systems healthy • Increases fruiting and flowering • Increases crop yields Glomus aggregatum Studies have determined the importance of the endomycorrhizal fungus G. aggregatum: • Improves plant performance in sandy soils • Protects plant roots • Effective root colonization with time release fertilizers • Tolerant of high fertility levels • Improves performance of Palms, Fruit trees. Glomus intraradices Glomus intraradices is the most widespread and researched endomycorrhizal fungi. Literally thousands of studies have determined the importance of G. intraradices: • Increases nitrogen and phosphorus uptake • Increases crop yields • Protects plant roots • Can access organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus • Improves growth and performance of turf grasses, agricultural crops and nursery stock • Improves plant resistance to a wide array of soil toxicities • Drought protection • Salt tolerance Glomus etunicatum Glomus etunicatum is also a widespread and well researched endomycorrhizal fungus. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. etunicatum: • Very effective in agricultural soils • Promotes root health • Greatly improves drought tolerance • Increases mineral uptake • Effective in mine reclamation • Increases crop yields • Flowering increases • Increases enyzme activity • Improved plant establishment Glomus deserticola Glomus deserticola is common in semi arid and arid conditions . Studies have determined the importance of G. deserticola: • Very effective in reducing drought stress • Promotes salt tolerance • Increases P nutrition • Increases crop yields • Increases N fixation activity Glomus clarum Glomus clarum is distributed widely. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. clarum: • Protects against heavy metal toxicity • Promotes salt tolerance • Increases P nutrition • Improved growth of grain crops • Increases N fixation activity • Increases crop yields • Well adapted to a wide variety of plants and soil conditions Glomus monosporum Glomus monosporum is widely distributed in mediterranean climates. Studies have determined the importance of G. monosporum: • Active during periods of low water availability • Promotes root rot tolerance • Increases P nutrition • Improved fruit production • Increases production of vegetable crops Gigaspora margarita Gigaspora margarita is common in tropical and subtropical areas. Studies have determined the importance of G. margarita: • Increases P nutrition • Improved growth of tropical and subtropical fruits Paraglomus brasilianum Paraglomus brasilianum is common in rehabilitation of disturbed soils. Studies have determined the importance of P. brasilianum: • Resistance to soil toxicity • Improved root enzyme activity • Enhances soil remediation Pisolithus tinctorius Pisolithus tinctorius is a puffball species that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use a blend of several ecotypes in our MycoApply® formulations which assures rapid mycorrhizal formations across a variety of environmental conditions. Documented benefits include: • Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species • Increases feeder root production • Tolerant of hot, dry conditions • Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity • Inhibits soil pathogen growth and plant infection • Benefits plants in disturbed environments and acid soils Rhizopogon Rhizopogon spp is a truffle species that has numerous special qualities important in a soil inoculation program. The Rhizopogon groups of R. villosulus, R.luteolus, R amylopogon and R fulvigleba targets a wide range of ectomycorrhizal tree and shrub species. • Promotes soil structure • Tolerant of cold soil temperatures • Tolerant of a broad pH range • High levels of enzyme activity benefiting nutrient and micronutrient acquisition • Can utilize organic forms of nitrogen • Protects seedlings against moisture stress • Promotes successful plant establishment and growth Scleroderma Scleroderma is a semi hypogeous genus that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal formulations in our MycoApply products S.cepa and S. citrinum. Documented benefits include: • Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species • Improves N and P uptake • Increases feeder root production • Prolific rhizomorph producer improves performance in hot, dry conditions • Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity • Improves root health • Improves restoration of degraded soils Laccaria Laccaria is a mushroom genus that is also widespread across an array of diverse habitats and host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal speciess in our MycoApply products L. laccata and L. bicolor. Documented benefits include: • Improves survival and growth inoculated tree species • Improves N and P uptake • Increases feeder root production • Protects roots • Tolerant of high fertility levels • Decreases drought stress Based on what I’ve found out so far (and I think I need to chat with the RTI people and also the Bio Ag folks), this is my understanding. 1. While propagules and spores are different entities, in this instance when Mycorrhizal Applications refers to propagules, they are referencing spores but must call them propagules in order to meet licensing standards in all 50 States. Dr. Mike stated that they do not count propagules that are not spores, because he agreed that they would be largely ineffective. 2. It is very difficult to compare myco products! My OPINION: In the case of soil biology and diversity, I feel that having additional myco species beyond just g. intraradices would be beneficial. I would like to see some evidence that these myco species are in direct competition with each other when colonizing a root hair. It seems logical to me that it’s more likely the competition with be with other micro-organisms in the soil, and survival and colonization would become more successful with a diversity of myco species, as certain species would be more successful in different environmental conditions, with variables like soil temperature, existing soil biology, moisture levels, and soil structure all having some influence on colonization. Again, the above paragraph is my OPINION. I’m more than happy to admit that I could be wrong. Interestingly enough, I have it from a reliable source that all the g. intraradices is coming from Premier in Canada and all these companies are just repackaging and relabeling it. All products MYKE® PRO mycorhizae Additionally, more companies are buying from Mycorrhizal Applications and then re-labeling further and marking it up. Piranha – Piranha Beneficial Fungi Information by Advanced Nutrients I know for sure the guys above get their myco from Mycorrhizal Applications. (they state on the website that they make it themselves) There’s a liquid product at the first link that has significantly higher spore counts than any of the products we have been discussing. Hth! P-
You are correct- endo IS what cannabis needs. This is what Patanjali is saying. Seems to be on the money in the explanation.