Morality Binds Us to Time

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by H2O420, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. Bare with me, this might be a bit long winded, but I need other perspectives on this. If you take the time to read and respond that'd really be appreciated. :)

    Sometimes at night, around 1ish am, I sit back in my room, close my eyes and think about everything outside basic human knowledge (not really, because I'm a basic human), which includes universes, time, infinity, creation, etc, and our connection to them. My head begins to hurt, usually, a pressure in the center of my forehead just above the brow (third eye?) and I become completely unaware of my surroundings, totally engrossed in thought. And usually I come up with somewhat..bizzare stuff. This happened again last night, except this time I picked up my phone and jotted down this little poem-ish thing to help me remember what came to my mind.

    Morality binds us to time
    Understanding right and wrong puts you in touch with the infinite
    Conscience becomes a guide, based on a desired outcome
    Do good, be happy, good things will happen
    someday
    Do wrong, be cold, hateful, nothing goes your way
    everyday
    Take advantadge and scorn, desires flee your grasp
    Help, lend a hand, forgive
    The future can be better than the past
    We all decide our fate.

    What I'm saying is understanding right and wrong is the begining of understanding good and evil, and both sides have an outcome that you feel the effects of now. This is based on the idea that we live in the past, as on the timeline of the universe human existance has been only as long as a snap of a finger, which means all this already happened, and we're just catching up to ourselves.

    But there are various outcomes our lives can come to, our connection to time allows us to choose our path based on our actions. Similar to karma, but more on a cosmic, kind of scietific level. If you have a deep enough understanding of morality, the deeper your connection to time, the more control you have over your life, though you really have no control at all. Your conscience is your connection to time leading you on a path based on your descisions.

    :confused_2:
     
  2. What about rocks and water? These things are not moral, are they bound to time?

    More importantly, how are good and evil defined?

    I like the poem, I think it's a positive little piece of thought, maybe a mantra that should be used to start each day. However, I don't know how much truth it holds.
     

  3. Rocks aren't people, aren't living things, but they're made of the same stuff as you and me. A rock does what a rock does, and so does water. They exist, thrive, and decay, with time.

    Good and evil are situational. Sometimes the wrong thing is the right thing to do, and the right thing is the wrong thing to do. There are a lot of variables with good and evil, and I won't pretend to know them all.

    Thanks, and neither do I, lol
     
  4. What evidence is there that time exists as an independent dimension?

    What we do only affects what happens to us. Neither of these have to do with how we feel, what we are in touch with. The consciousness behind the action is what puts us in touch with infinity, not the action itself.

    Morality is not conscience. The conscience can seem moral in many situations, but it precludes and prexists any invented concept of morality.

    "Do good, be happy" - How do you "be" happy? If it was as easy as willing yourself to be happy, do you think people would be sitting around in suffering the way they do? Happiness is a matter of consciousness, not what occurs, and not a matter of willing it.

    Right and wrong, good and evil are relatives, not absolutes. In absolute perspective, they don't exist, absolute reality is non-dual. To be in touch with infinity, you need to fall into the neutral space of non-duality. If you are still in duality, in right and wrong, in cause and effect, you can never be in touch with the infinite - the non dual - the causeless effectless.

    Morality is an invention, there is no deep understanding to be had.

    Infinity and liberation is an inner state, where no matter whether good or bad happens on the physical level, your inner state is liberated. As long as you are identified with duality, identified with the outside and think that the things that happen to you are what will make you blissful, you will miss inner liberation.
     

  5. He's right. I say this because i am cold, an asshole. I don't care about anyone in this world other than myself, and things go perfectly for me. Looking at that as perception would mean not that if you are good, you will be happy (and the opposite for being naughty) but instead, the way that you perceive things is exactly they way that they turn out. By not caring about anyone else, by being "cold" i am able to push (mostly) everyone away from me, and still be happy because i please myself.

    In just the same way, time is a concept that was made so people could make accurate guesses and look back into the past, as well as have a system in measuring the way that we live our lives today. That being said, time was invented. If time was not invented, we would not be moving forward.
     
  6. What eveidence is there that time exists? Age? Rotation and revolution of planets and galaxies? Numbers are something we made up, time is something we made up. I'm talking about the time we can't fully understand, not as an independent dimension, but as everything.

    Consciousness behind the action is what I mean by morality. Morality is a concept invented to understand consciousness, like a clock was invented to understand time. Flawed, at times, but its roots are in the right place.
    People sit around in suffering because of their environment. Something tragic, something terrible, wars, poverty, death, etc. All things that happen. A rainy day looks different to everyone, which goes back to interpretation of good and bad. Which goes back to morality. Which goes back to consciousness.

    You can't be told how to be happy.

    I agree. I'm not speaking in absolutes, I'm just using subjective terms.
    Of course there is! Otherwise there would be no need for morality.

    Inner liberation, aka less subjective 'happiness'.

    What happens to you effects (affects?) human happiness. If you're sad and miserable all day, what are the chances of you finding inner liberation? The goal I would think is coming to that point..would we not be equipped with the capacity to reach it?
     
  7. Double post!
    There's a lot of variables to being happy, because everyone's different.

    I was expecting the death penalty or abortion to instantly be brought up to combat a unified sense of morality, so I'll bring it up. There's not a unified sense of morality or happiness, it's all subjective. But you can feel what's right for you.
     
  8. #8 Androgenicx, Feb 13, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2009
    Age is just the body ageing. We have invented a system of time to relate changes in the dimension of space. Something ageing does not age without reason - just because of time - it ages as it materially degrades. A cell is born, it degrades and dies due to the influence of physical factors, not due to time - the relation of change between the physical factors is construed as time. It is just as likely that all there is is matter suspended in space, brownian forces of sorts applying themselves to all the matter and energy and changing their structure. We as relative entities relate these changes in structure due to forces with time. That doesn't make it exist independent of us.


    Thats not what morality means in the dictionary sense, nor in the sense that people usually use it. The word morality correlates with action. A clock cannot allow you to understand time, just relate to the concept of it. Morality was invented in an attempt to create order and peace, not to understand consciousness. Consciousness cannot be understood, only experienced, the eye cannot see itself
    People without tragedy, with perfect lives, who are rich and healthy and alive suffer all the time as well. People suffer because of their perception that these things are terrible, not because of the things themselves.

    There isnt, in fact it is counterproductive to real compassion and virtue flowering in a persons consciousness.


    No, absolute liberation from even the concept of happiness and sadness. "Happiness" in the human, wordly term cannot even begin to correlate to existential liberation/bliss. Existential bliss is a causeless bliss, not because of anything not directed at anything - it stands independent of anything, and there is no experiencer - there is just the experience.
    If your sad and miserable all day you are not liberated inside. Pain is just a reminder that we are not realized with the whole that everything innately is a part of. Once we realize that we are the whole and we do not exist as seperate entities, identity dies, seperate sense of self dies, cause and effect vanishes - all that there is is causeless, sourceless bliss that cannot be troubled by anything.
     
  9. #9 H2O420, Feb 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2009

    I understand what you're saying completely, I just disagree. We have a sense of time. It's like saying we taste because we have tongues, but if we didn't have tongues flavor wouldn't exist.



    I'm not a very dictionary-sense person. I toss words about at my whim. :D

    I say awareness of action is a tool provided for you to choose the correct action. Consciousness is being aware of existence. You're consciousness can be altered, and if you dig deep enough you can understand why. My eye can't see itself, but my brain knows how it works.

    If you're suffering odds are you don't have a perfect life. No one lives without some form of pain. Feeling no pain is being inhuman, and human is what we are. I'm saying if you do good, which will make you feel good, you will be happy, it's just not as cut and dry as that.


    It's counterproductive to compassion and virtue to understand compassion and virtue?



    I understand that, yet, I am human. And because of that, all that sounds very boring to me. I can't recieve bliss from nothing because..I wouldn't want to. Pain is a part of being human, and being human is what I'm here to do. Happpiness and sadness, as well as bliss, are senses. Having no concept of them is counterproductive to the feeling of bliss. If you're in bliss, and have no concept of it, it's pointless. And you need to have a concept of happiness to have a sense of biss. 'Happiness' is in the definition of bliss.

    Edit: And just to be clear when I say 'conscience' I don't mean 'consciousness'.
     
  10. I am totally with you on the deep thought late at night, the exact same region of my head experiences the same feeling of pressure and I lose awareness of all things around me. It is an excellent state to be in, for me its as if my mind has reached the plateau of perfect thought, sort of resonating at the optimal frequency.

    Anyway as for the main post, I have no comment, but I think I understand.
     
  11. Before you can state that we are bound to time by our morality, you must first answer the question "What is time". this is not something I can answer for you, and is what i intend to meditate on tonight. If I have a though about this, then I will return with my conclusion.
     
  12. I totally understand man, its like, your intent. When you imagine bad things and reimagine them over and over its like watering a seed and it will grow, imprinting itself into your brains srtucture, the energy of the universe pulsates within us. I find an old school movie projector is a good metaphore, where the film is your conciousness or you and the light shining through is the universal energy. I think you can never get away, even if you shut everyone else out, you still have the universe shining through you. There's no where to turn except to change your structure, pervertion is just that, twisted and gnarlly, I imagine a good person's soul or structure to look more and more beutiful and symetrical as they do better and more intricate as they get deeper into thought.

    Have you ever wished for something a child, but it didn't happen. Just remember that the universe works on a diffrent time scale, keep on imagining the things you wish for your self every day, imagine how you can get them, then put your feet where they need to be to set things in motion, its never a totally give you situation you have to earn it you never deserve shit, ya know. Be patient and keep watering your seeds. But be warry you are the water, they universe sets they path of the river, if you resist and dream of things against the flow, you wont get to where you wanted, but there are many diffrent forks in the river, choose wisely...

    Best of luck to you guys out there
    (luck, to me meaning, The universe's will to push you along where you will, but you two must get along ya know, ;) thats the kind of morality I think H20420 is speaking the how good you feel about how you feel about things or actions or situations)
     
  13. Yeah, lol, pretty much. I use words like 'happy' and 'sad' or 'good' and 'bad' because they have deeper meaning to me, I tend to forget not everyone thinks the same way, I get very used to talking to myself haha.
     
  14. Yeah, like I can say that taking ectacy these days is bad, but what I mean by that is its not worth it, you never know if that just some meth in you pill, to me its just twisted to give someone methamphetamin and not tell them. I also would say taking meth in any form is not water I want to dip my toes in. My friends all like "rolling" and openly admit to knowing its probably speed, but they take em anyways, like are they telling me that they are speed heads in the closet? I don't know man thats why I stay away, I took some rolls one time and liked it, but it was way too stimulating and there were way too many other side effect the next day.
    My friends tell me I should open up more and roll with them, but when I explain to them why I don't want to do it, because of all the factoids about it, they tell me im preaching to them, and i feel segregated, why? I dont think of them too much less because of it, yes alil respect is lost but they are still my friends, its like they will just pop what ever is in front of them, and be like let see what happens. Then what gets me the most, is when they say that im just scared and need to open up to new experiences, well let me tell you now I have no problem with shrooms, acid, lsa, dmt or thc, these are all similar chemecals to the ones our bodies make already. Ive takein 20 HBWR seeds, 2 hits of good Acid then 2 grams of shrooms all on the same occation, and they say im not open to new experiences, im just picky as to what I think is healthy and I think taking a pill that is prolly 90% chance just speed or speed and heroin, fuck that thats just fuckin stupid and askin for an addictio, I find that addictions are determental to my personal growth, so I wont indulge, and when I explain myself my good friend D just says that I shouldn't enforce my opinions on anyone and should keep to myself and just have fun like he does, but non of this was goin on until this chick came about and now rolling is like the crews thing ya know, I think he diggs her and just trys to look cool any chance he gets by forcing this image of a preacher slash good boy that needs to be a man and just drink a bottle of liquir and pop some meth so I can stay up, like him, then when the crew asks me why I dont want to take the pill I explain myself, with reason and intuition trying to "enlighten" them to what they are doing to them selfs, I guess they think Im tryin to put them down but its like no you are doin it to your self becuase of the mob mentality, you all take the pill together and then keep talking about how much I should be where they are at, but Im sorry I have goals in life, I know how this game works, and Im gonna play it right see, ever since I was just a seed I ran hard like a true G, and I still do, cuz this is my house, my world and Im gonna live in it and above it from within and without it and fuck that force in nature that wants to keep me at a halt, some how living in the moment seems frozen to me, like spining your wheels, I feel dreaming is good it always has progresion and meaning, where as a good party with good friends can be meaningful and help in your personal progresion but when you go at it with the mentality of giving up, to drown your self away or take a pill for some kind of statisfaction that real MDMA may give you for that moment in history but I am looking for a sustainable feel good, and for me that comes by being physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy .

    Sorry just venting on some current shit that has to do with morality in my situation. The way I see it you guys roll on pills I roll on my 1 gram of shrooms and 500mg of HBWR seed extract I made myself. But dont tell me that if I was to take that chemical pill I will feel better or be more party friendly, but Im sorry I am me, I feel uncomfortable around a ton of people I dont know for awhile It takes me time to get comfortable, and I think that the only reason anyone is rolling is cuz that chick likes to and everyone is trying to bond with her I guess, I like her to but im not changing the way I act toward my friends or forgeting what I know is right for me, becuse she has a pussy, sure I would love to hit it, but Im just looking for somethin more then fleeting moments of empty pleasure. Reminds me of a song from Dog Boy (subnoize records) " Can't Buy Soul" Im just tired of hanging around lost souless people all they want to do is drag me into what ever hole they are in, and they keep wasting money on pills trying to buy soul instead of cultivate it inside of them selves the hide it from them selves, and do what is labeled as "cool".

    Let me know what you think, I know I have issues and if you see any let me know what you think, I dont mind changing myself if it leads to being a better person, but if the advise I believe will hinder my spiritual growth I will let you know what I think and why.
     
  15. I wouldn't say morality binds us to time. If we didn't persist through time, we would have no existence. And without existence, there is no morality.
     
  16. here here tikiman.

    I would say time is a place for our souls to learn leasons. Not sure if we ever leave this place or not, maybe once we accept the ultimate glory or something?

    Descartes, I believe, thought that this world was a hallucination created by a demon. He probobly had demons of his own that led to him atributing the creator as being a negative force ment to trap us, he was probably traping himself, he seemed to be like me, a dreamer that locked himself in due to fear of the unknown, or maybe its just shear laziness? But I hear that's a question for the ages. Also reminds me of the conversation that started in 'Im highly uneducated' I posted my idea about there existing two forces in "nature" one being our will to the negative, another being our acceptence of love.

    I think alot of our behaviour is bound to morality, and in a sense morality is bound to time through us as our actions are layed out in time to create an appearant history. The old mental image of hystory as being a time line that can branch or loop back onto itself seems not to hit the cord just right with my mental image of a personal history (could expand to include all histories, ie god), the image in my mind right now is much like the way you would visualize the universe with all the particles within in their wave state, multi dementional ripples colliding with eachother to create patterns. I guess I view time much like space, with all possabilities existing simultainiously except for some reason or unreason we are here, now, with the past and future opened up in so many directions, but the choices we make dictates the course of history, but every choice is already there every outcome playable, it up to you try and look ahead and gain concious control in creating your life, and that takes getting in touch with your soul and dealing directly with what is moral. So Us, Morality, and Time are all bound together in sybiosis, working together. This is where we get sychronisities from, the fact that our choices (how ever free or not or will is, and I think it changes sometimes we got it sometimes we don't, grace?) based on morality affect history which we can pick up on and for see (deja vu) to aid in the disicion makeing process of a choice which would affect history.

    You know how they say history repeats its self? Well I take that literally. I believe that after going through this enough times our souls build habits in our desicion making, if I choose to steal a candy from a store at 8 years old in '94 and get away with it, the next time that I am 8 years old in '94 I probablly have a greater chance of doing it again, until we become enlightened, reserected, or born again, all three of which being a state of mind, knowing who you really are. If you are just a robot but one day come to the conclution that you are aware, you may start wondering why, well becuase there is electricity flowing threw your chips, well are you the chip or the electricity? The chips are just a structer or paterns of operation or decition making. The electricity is whats bringing all robots to life, when the energy leaves the robots stop working. So are we the chips or the electricity. Ill talk about it later in a thread called "the Ghost in the Machine" got to go laters.
     

  17. Well said. :)
     

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