Meat/fish - good or bad?

Discussion in 'Fitness, Health & Nutrition' started by GK420, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. So after going vegan (or even before) you hear the whole "meat is bad!" "no, meat is good!" crap. So can anyone provide me with some good info on the subject, and by that I don't mean an angry vegetarian or hardcore "I love me some steak" hillbilly on YouTube shouting at a camera about how great steak/tofu is. I ask because the big reason I dislike the idea of eating meat is because of the meat industry, not because I'll break down in tears at the thought of shooting a rabbit for dinner. Can anyone give me any good evidence or reason to believe that meat or fish is bad for us as humans? I hear that depending on the type, a lot of fish can have high levels of mercury (peta argument), but then I read that adults have no problem with it in reasonable amounts, with the exception of pregnant women, so clearly it's not that bad.

    I'm also aware that this thread might already exist, in which case I do apologise.
  2. My non-i-love-animals reasons for going vegan:
    -You have to cook meat (as I vegan I don't cook anything)
    - - Less electricity/gas used
    - - You're not heating your home, making your ac work harder
    - - Less dishes to use/wash
    - - Saves A LOT of time
    -42-9% of meat in America has staph
    -lots of meat in America is contaminated with 'multi-drug-resistant' bacteria
    -you don't have to worry about you or someone else undercooking your food
    -you're eating a dead animal (you are what you eat): so if that animal was stressed out a lot then you're eating stressed out flesh and blood
    -every meat has a lot of cholesterol, yes even 'lean' meats
    -as a vegan i don't see a way of ever consuming bad cholesterol.. pretty much impossible
    -vegans tend to eat a lot more raw foods; cooking kills a lot of anti-oxidants, vitamins, and minerals
    -the texture of meat always gets stuck in my teeth
    -you don't have to worry about the quality of your meat when you eat out
    -people that consume plant-based diets have a much lower chance of developing heart disease.. which is the number one killer in america
    -people that consume plant-based diets typically have lower blood pressure and bad cholesterol
    -people that consume plant-based diets have a lower risks cancers, tumors, diabetes, and other age-related diseases
    -nutritionally, the only nutrient that meat has that a plant-based diet doesn't is vitamin b-12. but if you drink soy, rice, hemp, or almond milk.. it's typically fortified with b-12. cereals and vegan energy/protein bars are sometimes fortified with it too. but two glasses of silk soy milk will give you all the b-12 that you need.
    -but my favorite aspect of being a vegan is that such a clean diet will make you last soooooooo much longer in bed. that alone is more than enough of a reason for me to being a vegan.
  3. #3 GK420, Aug 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2011
    I was vegan until about 3am this morning, but one small thing changed my whole view on this, so to the point I can say I've heard a lot of these before and felt like they were good arguments. I'm still not going to eat milk or dairy for health reasons and because even though I don't see anything wrong with killing an animal ("humanely"), I don't like the idea of sucking cows dry and stuff like that. Anyway:

    All good points here, except for the time/cleaning thing. I'm guessing you eat a raw vegan diet then? Not every vegan is a raw vegan, though. I was planning on going raw but I honestly would not survive on that kind of diet.

    One bonus to not living in the US. :D

    Again, I live outside of the US, but obviously America is not the only place. A lot of this is not about meat itself, but rather the quality of the meat. I don't plan on eating meat in the usual way I used to before going vegetarian; no nasty chicken nuggets or southern fried chicken, just organic free range type stuff.

    Good point here. I myself have never had undercooked meat though as far as I can remember, with the exception of that disgusting stuff they sell in chicken & chip shops here. As I said though, I'm never going to buy this horrible stuff again, as it's pumped with hormones and other nasty stuff. Even if they are mostly halal here in the UK, I don't think that stops them from treating the animals like KFC do/have done before their actual slaughter, which I still can't stand the idea of.

    I've heard this one about fear/adrenaline before. I think this is a bit of an extreme though, as an endless number of meat eaters are very happy, stress-free people. Also, if animals can cope with it, I don't see what stops our bodies from coping with it. Plus the fact that free range animals out in the open generally live fairly stress-free lives.

    To continue from my point about happy meat eaters - there are meat eaters that have no problems with cholesterol, so eating meat alone isn't the only contributing factor. The so-called "cavemen" got away with it for years.

    True, but that doesn't mean a meat eater won't eat raw foods. There are non-veg*n raw diets. I'm going to look more into this "caveman" diet, which includes a lot of fruits and vegetables, and I don't see why they couldn't be eaten raw too.

    LOL I know, horrible eh? I have dental floss though ;)

    I'm still thinking about the quality of the meat when I eat out (hey hey, sexual undertones here), and I think I'll hold off for the most part. The exception to this is a Greek restaurant I've been to a few times... they do the best chicken I have ever tasted in my entire life. This was the only small thing that made me miss the idea of meat to be honest; I've never craved meat or desperately wanted any (except for when I was high once and really hungry but unable to get any food).

    Again, I think this is all based on the quality of meat and the levels in which it is eaten. Most Americans don't even know what the word 'diet' means, so this point depends heavily on the TYPE of meat/plant-based diet people eat. Obviously being a veg*n you will have to watch what you eat, and by doing so, you avoid a lot of unhealthy foods. My point here is that the majority of people (at least in America or the UK) don't care about their diet, so therefore they won't avoid unhealthy meat. The eating of flesh alone does not make a person unhealthy, and is subject to the kind of diet they eat. It's like the large number of veg*ns with protein or B12 deficiencies - it's not because a veg*n diet lacks protein or B12, but because a large number of veg*ns aren't eating a healthy/"good" veg*n diet.

    Soy is basically poison and I wouldn't touch it again. In terms of taste/texture it is the best vegan alternative to milk in my opinion, but after reading about all the stuff it can do to you, I wouldn't wanna put it in my body any more. If you haven't heard about the premature puberty in girls and delayed puberty in boys stuff caused by giving babies/toddlers soy, I'd recommend you check it out. I have a feeling you're educated on this to some degree though, so if you can provide any facts against this I'd appreciate it, as I miss soy milk. As for hemp milk - really? I didn't know that. Hemp milk is a bit nutty tasting for me though. Almond has a strange taste which I have to mask with a large amount of maple syrup, which then kills the taste. The texture after a few hours in the fridge is also quite unpleasant, along with the smell. I do drink rice milk now, but sadly it's only good for tea or drinking on its own. I don't think mine is fortified with B12 though.

    LOL so I hear. I don't think that'll come in handy for me personally any time soon though, but maybe my luck will change. I suppose jacking off keeps me busy for a bit longer than it used to, but maybe I'm just evolving into the sex master I was born to be. :smoking:
  4. #4 dariolovesdeb, Aug 8, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
    No, I don't even think half my diet is raw. I eat a lot of whole grain cereal, whole grain pasta, whole grain bread, whole grain rice, oatmeal, peanut butter, all-natural cooked beans out of the can (without preservatives), and Clif Bars. The only thing I have to cook is the pasta and I eat that once a week. I don't have to cook the rice because I found all-natural whole grain rice without preservatives that are ready to eat.

    I can see why cavemen didn't have problems, because they were by far more active than we are.

    Soy is a poison? It's one of the best sources of protein, and the whole myth about it raising estrogen is false. The only reason why there ever was the whole estrogen myth is because soy has the anti-oxidant, phytoestrogen. Us humans are born with a specific amount of estrogen receptors. Us males produce estrogen, and it binds to our few estrogen receptors. Well the estrogen that soy may help produce in our body is 1/100 potent as the estrogen that our body will naturally produce. So for males, it actually helps lower estrogen levels. And if you eat a diet high in monounsaturated fats (nuts, seeds, avocados) which most vegans already do, then those might actually help raise your testosterone levels. I've been consuming soy as a major protein source for the last two years, but I also have been consuming a lot of healthy fats. I'm hornier now then when I was 15 and I have no bitch-titties so I'm living proof that the myth is just a myth.

    Yeah, but you want to be ready for when the time comes... don't you?
  5. Oh yeah, totally forgot about fish; if scientist and nutritionist are telling me that I shouldn't eat fish more than once a week because it has that much mercury... then I don't want to consume it at all if eating two servings of seafood in seven days will already have so much mercury to where it's unsafe.

    Like I said, the only thing that meat has to offer that a plant-based diet doesn't is vitamin B-12. And if you can find fortified sources of that, there is no reason for why you need to eat meat. Since I was 11 I started to eat food based on function and not pleasure, but it wasn't until the age of 20 that I realized that I don't need meat. Day after day I am thankful for coming to that realization.

    And the whole 'vegan diets lack protein' is definitely false. First, you don't need a lot of protein to begin with. I've read up on MMA fighters (even some vegans) in the 150-170lb range eating 90-110 grams of protein on their training days, and about 70 grams on off-days. Second, you get all your essential amino acids in a balanced vegan diet.

    I know veggies are expensive, but you can eat them in the raw form and absorb all the raw anti-oxidants, vitamins, and minerals (hence why a plant costs so much). I know meat that isn't of shitty quality is expensive too, but since you have to cook meat you're pretty much just getting the calories and none of the benefits of the raw meat. Money wise, it seems more budget friendly to not eat meat.
  6. Well I've heard the whole "soy is good for you" stuff is a lie created by companies to make money. I didn't notice any breast growth or anything when I was drinking soy milk (thankfully) but I hear it's packed full of crap that isn't good for you and actually increases the chance of heart problems. I don't mean to sound too doubtful of your info, but do you have any sources to back this up? I'd love to carry on drinking soy milk again, as rice milk isn't really doing the job for me lol. It's kinda hard to trust one opposing source though when the only ones backing it up say "it's good for you! End of discussion!" and the ones against it scare you with the whole cancer/hormone/toxin stuff. Apparently women who drink a lot of soy get sore nipples/breasts which sounds strange.
  7. #7 dariolovesdeb, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2011
    Fixed that up for ya. Not trying to chance the subject, but milk does not have anything to offer that you can get from a plant-based diet. 75% of adults are lactose intolerant (actually everyone on the planet is, but 25% of adults can handle a small amount of dairy per meal). Humans are the only animals that drink milk from another animal... and cows that aren't babies don't even drink milk. Drinking milk is definitely a cultural consumption, it has nothing to do with health. But hey, they're still spending millions to try and get everyone to drink it. And milk is bad for your sinuses, look it up. So if anything, milk is detrimental to the human body. We're not meant to digest it, pasteurized or not.

    As for the estrogen lowering effects, I read it up in a health magazine (but the research was done by a University). I'll definitely try to look it up for you when I get back home later tonight. But yes just look up the phytoestrogen on google and that should be a good starting point.

    I know in the U.S., the American Heart Association recommends the intake of 25 grams of soy protein a day for better heart health. I'll trust them, unlike the money-driven FDA.
  8. Some stuff I found..

    The Soy Myth :: EDGE Boston

    Soy Myths | Silk Soymilk, Made with Soy - One of Nature's Perfect Proteins

    Soy Milk: Separating Myth from Fact / Nutrition / Healthy Eating

    Men & The Effects of Soy Supplementation

  9. #9 GK420, Aug 9, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2011
    About the sinuses, you're definitely right. I remember when I was younger, whenever I drank milk before bed, I found it harder to sleep because my nose was all blocked up. Can I just ask though, are we just talking about normal milk in the supermarket, or raw milk as well? I hear goats milk is much better, but whether or not that's another lie I'm clueless.

    Anyhow, thanks a lot for all the info & the links. Sounds like I can enjoy soy milk again without fear of growing udders on my chest or my balls shrivelling up an dying!

    EDIT: About the silk website though - I wouldn't trust info provided about a company who actually sells the product. Cigarette companies back in the 50s said that smoking their cigarettes would do you good, but I think we know why that is. :D
  10. How would you become Vegan if you're allergic to Soy, and nuts?
  11. In my Food Safety and Sanitation course that I took to become a Certified Food Safety Manager, the professor heavily emphasized that raw milk is bad for humans no matter what. Too dangerous. And yes we are talking about anything with dairy in it, pasteurized or not. As for goat's milk, it's still a source of nutrients that is only meant for baby goats, and no other animals; so by nature our bodies are not born with all the proper enzymes to digest it efficiently.

    As for the Silk website, I thought the same thing but since their findings are almost exactly the same as the other references, either they're all lying or all presenting real facts.

    It would be harder to do but it's still possible. You can get your healthy fats and protein from avocados, whole grains, oatmeal, peanut butter (peanuts are not nuts), beans, seeds (hemp is a complete protein), quinoa (another complete protein), and all fruits and vegetables have small amounts of protein.

  12. Isn't it amino acids you really need though, as opposed to protein? I hear that most vegetables lack one of the amino acids that make up protein in our bodies though.
  13. #13 Bank of Dank, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2016
    Peanuts are legumes but I am very allerigic to them still, its actually the worse thing for me
  14. #14 Bank of Dank, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2016
    I learned that certain combos of vegetables, legumes, grains, etc give you the ones you breed
  15. That's true but you need quantity as well as quality.

    Ah, well one less option if you go vegan =/
  16. But there are still tons of dishes without soy, nuts, and peanuts. You can prepare beans, oatmeal, rice, pasta, and whole grains in many many ways. Maybe the only bad thing about not being able to eat nuts, peanuts, and soy is that those are definitely some of the more convenient sources of food in a vegan diet.
  17. Ah, I love dem beans n rice hahaha. Anyways, yeah itd be hard to do I guess, also is going vegan healthier than "the caveman" diet?,
  18. #18 GK420, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
    Question is though... does he want to go vegan? lol

    That was a problem for me; I've always had a strong dislike for nuts (not just the food), but recently I've discovered I can eat pistachios and salted cashews without gagging. As for soy, there was the whole "am I going to grow man boobs and get cancer" thing going through my mind.

  19. There's healthy vegan diets and unhealthy vegan diets. Cutting out meat or animal products won't automatically make you superman lol. If all you're eating is fruit and maybe a bit of rice each day, then you'll see your health deteriorate quite quickly. It's all about doing it right, just like with eating meat. On the subject of the caveman diet, search up the primal blueprint diet. It's been proven to be quite beneficial in terms of health. I suppose it's the non-vegan version of... being vegan (if that makes any sense lol).

  20. Wrong. Illness rates for raw dairy consumption are no higher than pasteurized milk. Storage procedures (keeping it cold) and source of the milk are more important than anything with milk safety. Milk from a clean grass fed cow is perfectly safe to drink right after it is milked...cows in dairy farms or feedlots are a different story!

    I steer clear of raw soft cheeses...too much chance for human sanitation and handling errors.

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