Major help needed before I lose yield!!

Discussion in 'Sick Plants and Problems' started by Gardengineer, Jun 5, 2009.

  1. #1 Gardengineer, Jun 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2009
    Guys, I am in need of some desperate help!

    I have 6 plants... ranging from 4-5.5 ft tall. They have been in flowering for about 5 weeks... Using a 75% FFOF, 25% FFLW mix in 3.5 gal pots, with drainage.

    The 2nd week in flowering, I noticed the "claw" starting to take hold on 4 of 6 plants, I asked a few questions and kinda determined it to be a N toxicity in flowering due to a recent transplant before they went into flowering. Shortly thereafter, they seemed to level out for about a week and not get any better or worse, and I stuck strictly to water w/o nutes (because they were in fresh soil).

    I have been noticing a little more than normal yellowing of fan leaves (which I know is normal during this time in flowering), but it is too much in my opinion, and the last week the larger fan leaves have started to curl downward more, taco downward some, and twist also... along with brown spots... I know this has to be a pH problem, but I am pulling my damn hair out, because my RO water shows almost perfect everytime.

    Now, I have been having to pH my water lower that what I typically expected, I pH about to 6.2-6.4 to hit the 6.6-6.8 range w/ my runoff. I am using about a $30.00 Hanna digital tester (about 3 months old, stored in 7.01 every night), and I recalibrate about once a month (should I calibrate more often)? I have both a 7.01 buffer solution and a 4.01 solution from GH, I also use their "pH Up" and "pH Down" for pHing my water... should I use something else for pHing. I have heard typically that soil gets more acidic as time goes on because of peat, nutes, and such, but I have to pH down everytime. I have both pH up and down available.

    I haven't added nutes since the last transplant almost 5 weeks ago, I can see that bud production has slowed on 4 plants, the other 2 seem to be going just fine without problems, and they get the same water/feeding regiment.

    WHAT CAN I DO?! Flush with distrilled and go from there? Get a new pH tester? I need to figure out something quick, especially since these plants are thirsty every other day... getting about 3/4-1 gallon.

    HELP! Thanks! :confused: :( I can get pics if needed.
     
  2. Sounds to me like you might have a nutrient deficiency from using RO water and not adding any nutes for the last few weeks. Any pics?
     
  3. Are you adding cal mag plus to your R/O water?

    If you are using R/O water, this needs to be added, because the process of Reverse Osmosis removes everything "good for the plant" that the water is supposed to naturally contain.
     
  4. Sorry for the confusion guys... when I typed RO i didn't even think people use that for Reverse Osmosis... what I meant was my Run-Off water, after the water runs thru the soil.
     
  5. Which is why I always ask that people define abbreviations and acronyms on first use.
     
  6. Fair enough...

    Any help on the subject?
     
  7. Anything guys? I am going to go get some photos to see if that helps.

    This morning they are needing water, and I am giving them straight 6.7 pHed water, that has sat out 48 hrs. I am curious to see what my tester will say for the run off on these.
     
  8. Here are the photos...

    Only larger fan leaves facing the light are getting spotty and yellowing faster, (dual vertical bulbs), and mainly the top leaves on each branch are showing the tacoing down, claw like shape. Leaves on the back of the plant look fine really, just typical yellowing from flowering, no spotting.

    Any help here would be greatly appreciated. I ran 6.7 pHed water thru 3 plants yesterday morning and pH from run-off was between 6.6-6.8. I am absolutely pulling my hair out.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. It looks like soil salinity to me. Even though you may have your runoff comming out in range, you could still have salt build up from your nutes. Also, during flowering it is good to use Cal/Mag plus...I use it throughout my grows. Have you flushed at all during this grow? I flush within the first 30-45 days of the grow, then again about 1 week before I go to 12/12, and then the last 2-3 weeks of the grow. I think a good flush, wait 3 days to a week, then give them a light dose of bloom & boost w/ a dose of Cal/Mag. What color is your water when you test the runoff?

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  10. I also pulled this from the ICMag forum to see if this will help with helping me...

    SOIL:

    How long has this problem been going on?
    1.5 Weeks

    What STRAIN are you growing? Old strain Chronic and Northern Lights, NL is showing the problems.
    What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) Seed

    What is the age of your plants? 3 Months 1 week.

    How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? 5 weeks

    How Tall are the plants? The ones with problems, 3 are about 4ft, 1 is about 5.5 ft.

    What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Flowering

    What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) Minor LST just in Veg for headspace.

    What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 1 per pot, 3.5 gal pots.

    What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?
    (percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) Mix of 75% FFOF / 25% FFLW

    What Nutrient's are you using? I use mostly Pure Blend, but haven't used any on the problem plants since transplant into new soil.

    How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* N/A/

    How often are you feeding? Watering every other day, about 3/4 to 1 gal, no nutes.

    If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? N/A

    What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) N/A

    What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? N/A

    What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? Tester says between 6.6 - 6.8 almost every watering.

    What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? Hanna Tester ($30.00) recalibrated every week or 2 with 7.01 and 4.01 solutions, stored in 7.01.

    How often are you watering? Every other, or every 3rd day as needed.

    When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? Last feeded was before transplant (5 weeks ago), last watering was yesterday.

    What size bulb are you using? Using both a 400w CMH and 400 HPS vertically.
    What is the distance to the canopy? 6-8 inches, fan blowing upward at bulbs on high.

    What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) Sticks right around 40%.

    What is the canopy temperature? High 80s to low 90s.

    What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) Day is high 80s to about 90ish, night drops to low 70s.

    What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 250 CFM exhaust thru DIY scrubber, 3 10" fans circulate, open air intake, much more fresh air intake than needed.

    Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
    Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
    2 10" fans on plants all the time, 250cfm exhaust thru scrubber always running, intake is passive and is way more than enough fresh air. 10" fan helping to move fresh air in from outside the room, along with a passive intake directly from outside.
    Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? I go thru the entire wet to dry cycle... 2-3 days.

    Is your water HARD or SOFT? More hard than anything.
    What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? Tap water that sits out atleast 24hrs, usually 48hrs and pHed.

    Are you using water from a water softener? No.

    Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? Only prune the dead leaves off.

    Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? No.

    Are plant's infected with pest's? No.
     
  11. I haven't flushed, but typically when I water, especially since the problem has been occuring I have been running about twice as much water thru the soil as normal... typically it took me about 3/4 of a gallon to thouroughly soak the soil and get a little run-off, now I have been putting about 1.5 gallons thru each and getting about 1/2 gallon of run-off. I've done this for about the last week and 1/2 or so, since I first started noticing the problem. I do have Cal-Mag but have not used it during flowering yet... do you think I might be having a def. also? As far as run-off color when I first started putting more water thru the soil, the run-off was a brownish color, which I figured it would be since I like using blackstrap molasses about every other watering, but have stopped since the problem... now the water comes out almost clear with maybe a very minor tint of brownish.

    Thanks for the help.
     
  12. Molasses is great, but you should not use it that often if you are using other flowering nutes, such as: Bloom or Boost formulas. The NL is especially sensitive to over feeding, I have grown 10 different lines of NL, from the true NL from Southern Oregon to many of Neville's NL lines, #2, #2X5, and #5 being my favorites of all the NL lines. One thing they all have in common is a sensitivity to over feeding.

    Cut back on using the Molasses until you get ready for your final flush, the last 2-3 weeks of flowering. Then use it on the first week of flushing and just water after that.

    Cal/mag will help, another trait of NL is it seems to really eat up secondary nutes, so I would keep with just water, but add about 3-5 ml of Cal/Mag to a gl and give them that on your next watering, if that is where the def is, you will notice a difference in 3-5 days.

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  13. I gave 3 plants (that needed watered) a shot of Cal-Mag and we'll see what happens. But also, since the transplant right before flowering, into fresh FFOF/FFLW mix I haven't really hit these guys with any real nutes, they are 5 weeks in now.

    Good possilbility that the loaded nutes in the soil are used up? I've had a few go arounds with this mix, but never really had the problems like this, but then again I never ran the NL strain also... and the 4 NL plants seem to be showing the problems, very little on the Chronic plants.

    I need to come up with some sort of a damn actual feeding schedule... I currently have...

    Pure Blend Pro Grow
    Pure Blend Pro Bloom
    Pure Blend Liquid Karma
    Pure Blend Cal-Mag
    Pure Blend Silicablast
    Europonics Fossil Fuel
    MaxiCrop Liquid Fish
    Aggrand Fish/Kelp
    Superthrive
    Blackstrap Molasses

    Thanks again.
     
  14. Wow!!! That seems like alot of stuff. I use to try everything and found the best results come from using basic 3 part nutes along w/ Cal/Mag and Molasses during flowering. I use a grow, Bloom, and Boost presently it is TechnaFlora b/c the shop owner wanted me to try it before he commited to the distributor on carrying these products, and honestly, they all pretty much are the same and do the job if everything else it kept in line.

    I do not use a feeding schedule, only go by what the plants tell me. In time you learn the early warning signs and can tell what they need and when they need it. As I said, I have always found NL strains to be very sensitive to both over feeding and under feeding, although it is an rather easy strain to grow, it is still a hybred and takes time to dial in for optimal results. Honestly, I think you can save yourself alot of money and frustration by just cutting down to a 3 part nute regime and adding Cal/Mag as a supplement, then a couple doses of molasses during flowering. FF makes great soil and I never skimp on soil, I have found both Ocean Forest and Happy Frog work great with little needed in additives.

    Keep me posted so we can work on saving these and getting your yield back up.

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  15. I appreciate the advice very much!

    From past experience with fresh FFOF, if I added nutes too early I would get some minor burning, so I have been holding off for about a month to month 1/2 before starting any type of feeding, and after transplants.

    The main reason I bought wide variety was to hopefully get everything the plants needed into the soil during feedings, now I have rarely used most of these since the FFOF is pre-loaded already... Like the Liquid Fish and Fish/Kelp I haven't really used, the Pro Grow I have not used yet, the Bloom I have used just a few times. The other stuff, Silica Blast, Liquid Karma, Cal-Mag, I had just been supplementing like one of them a week into a watering, not real sure if it really needs it or not... but like the Silica Blast is supposedly supposed to help strengthen stalks/branches, but I have only used this in a 1ml per gal. mix, the Fossil Fuel from what I understand is supposed to help the micro-herd along with the Molasses... now I know all these companies just love to sell their products and make them sound like you have to have them.

    Sounds like I may have added too many nutes in veg. phase and built up a salinity in the soil... I still may need to flush but am going to wait after all 6 of the plants get a dose of the Cal-Mag and see how they pan out in a few days. Realistically this is my first grow on this level, I set myself up fairly well with 3 rooms for each, seedling, veg, and flower and am running about 2000 watts total, somewhere in that range now.

    Have you had any experience with the Pure Blend/Botanicare line? I have read quite a bit on it, and heard a lot of good, but haven't really found much as far as quantities and when to use, I know you say I'll get a feel for the plants, and I absolutely believe your right, I have done fairly well with self-diagnosing in the past with both a boron def. and a phosphorus def., but still kinda new and I went full tilt into this right off the bat, with a lot of learning to do... I am a firm believer in reading only getting you so far until you do it yourself hands on.

    Like I said, I greatly appreciate the help and advice.
     
  16. I have used everything from commercial grades to professional grades. Botanicare is actually one of my favorites, along w/ the Fox Farm line and Ionic is good too. Remember, the cal/mag may not help if it is lockout due to the roots not asorbing any of the nutes. You will know in a few days b/c if it lockout, there will be no change the problem will most likely get worse, if was a cal/mag def, they will improve withing the first 3-5 days.

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  17. Yep, and thats exactly what I'm looking for on the 3 plants I watered the other night, and the other 3 should get the same treatment tonight. I've taken a quick look at the 3 that got it the other night and I can almost say the leaves have reversed the tacoing/clawing, but I will check them a lot better tonight when I water the other 3 and post back what I find.

    Definetly is a good thing to know that NL is a sensative strain... the weird part was, in veg. I had a few problems with the Chronic plants and the NL just grew like crazy, and its the exact opposite in flowering, the NL is showing the problems while the Chronic is flourishing... weird, I guess that just shows the comparitive difference between strains.
     
  18. Also, I just checked out some of those beautiful plants you have in your photo gallery... nice job for sure.

    I noticed you have very little to no yellowing of the fan leaves, even though your quite a ways thru flowering in some of them. Any pointers on that also? I appreciate it once again.
     
  19. I am very careful w/ nutes. I also use Cal/Mag about every 3 waterings. I also flush once during the veg stage, again a week or so before I go 12/12, then on my final flush for the last 2-3 weeks. In the last week the larger fan leaves yellow b/c the plant is using up all nutes there are available.

    I personally think the Cal/Mag helps greatly. I do not use the suggusted amount, I use about 2-3 ml per gl, only b/c I give it to the plants about every 3rd watering.

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  20. Interesting, that might have to be something I'll implement into my feeding schedule because the last few runs I did, about week 4/5 I started getting pretty decent yellowing of the fan leaves, by week 8, almost all fan leaves were gone leaving just small bud leaves and the buds themselves.

    From what I can tell, the 3 plants that got the Cal-Mag a few days ago look pretty good, seems like some minor improvement, and the other 3 got it last night. I don't see any signs thus far of them getting worse, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. Very awesome being able to talk and get some pointers from someone, especially when they have grown the same strain. I appreciate all the help immensly.

    I will keep you updated on the progression of these 6 plants.
     

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