Liberals and Conservatives, please justify taxation

Discussion in 'Politics' started by kingmonkey, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. Would someone please explain to me and everyone else why you think you have a right to our money, our income, our labor in order to pay for anything you want done?

    Why does the government have the "right" to steal money from people to pay for health care, war, hell how about roads and schools? Exactly HOW do you justify such massive theft?

    Explain why public theft is legal but private theft is not.
  2. good fuckin question man. idk either but, i agree with what ur sayin.

  3. Done. If you want the USDollar, you need US taxes to pay for it.

    We extend this for various reasons (making up for flaws in the free market like externalities and technology changes causing hardship, protecting sovereignty/the army, and protecting your "natural" rights, which are anything but natural imo.)
  4. Our freedom is measured by the percentage of income we are "allowed" to keep imo. If we were to be taxed 100% of our income, we would be slaves minus the beatings. If we are allowed to keep 100% of our income, then we would be 100% free minus government restrictions via laws.

    As our taxes increase, we spend more time working for the government and have less time for freedom and the pursuit of happiness. All this being decided by people who control their own incomes and they control where our taxes go.

    Taxes are necessary but they do reduce your freedom.....the big question is, how much freedom should we be "allowed" to have?

  5. This is absurd. We could have 10-100% taxation and still be free if the income is redistributed, or have 0% and live in mud huts.

    Look, there are major problems with the government, but without a government, it would be much fucking worse.

  6. Why I should be forced to accept a worthless currency? Why should we be monetizing debt?

    Can you provide an example of a hardship causing flaw in a free market?

    You don't believe in negative rights?

  7. I don't think that the government should be allowed to forcefully tax their citizens. If citizens want to contribute to a cause that the government is spear-heading, then go ahead, but I would rather that the government not force people to pay.
  8. Aren't taxes why we left the UK to begin with??
  9. You seem to be confusing freedom with coercive equalization...

    I don't want to be brought down to your size, thank you very much.
  10. Being a citizen in a country is kind of like being in a frat or some other group, you do get something back when you pay money into it even though it may not seem like it all the time. In the United States I pay my taxes and I know that no other country in the world is going to fuck with us, protection. I know that if I lose my job I could pull unemployment. Our government sets up roads and sets restrictions and pays police to help us in our everyday lives. Some people would even say that our government protects us against horrible drugs like MJ, I don't think it should be that way but I still respect my fellow citizens who have that opinion because it is their opinion. I think that my tax dollars do end up going into some stupid programs but I know that some of my tax dollars also go into some very important programs that some people couldn't live without.
  11. like or not, taxes are necessary.

    No taxes mean no police force, roads, military, etc.

    We would end up like Somalia; the biggest baddest mother fucker would rule everything till he gets popped, and the next guy steps in his place.

    Gross exaggeration but you get my point.
  12. The major problem with government is its size. Its too big, too impersonal, and far too powerful...governments should be localized to the furthest possible extent IMO because that allows for the the most citizen involvement in decision making, and the most beneficial use of taxpayer money to the taxpayer. We shouldn't have to pay our taxes to fund a government in which our only influence is one meaningless vote every 2-4 years, especially when the candidates we get to choose from are chosen by the power structures of political parties and not the people.

  13. Taxation is not theft.

    Taxes are necessary for a society to function. Don't want to be a part of society? Don't let the door hit you...

    There are legal ways to avoid paying taxes. Just because you are too lazy/unintelligent/unmotivated (or whatever) to figure out a way to do so, doesn't mean you are being forced into anything. If anyone actually wants to talk about that subject, I'm all ears. But otherwise, it just sounds a lot like whining to me. And I really have little tolerance for whining.

    By your very own definition, you are a thief every time you use our roads. You are a thief every time you use access a public website. You are a thief every time you use public transportation. You are a thief every time you check the weather or eat a bowl of cereal. Every day, YOU are stealing from others, and your life is much better because of it.

    Not only does it make you a thief, but it makes you a hypocrite. You benefit from society, but when others do it's "theft" and "stealing".

    So, why should I take you, a self-professed thief, seriously? Give up your internet. Give up your society provided luxuries, stop being such a cliche, and THEN I'll take you seriously.
  14. The expenses of government, having for their object the interest of all, should be borne by everyone, and the more a man enjoys the advantages of society, the more he ought to hold himself honored in contributing to those expenses.
  15. But their object isn't the interest of all. Opening up a book would tell you as much.

    It worries me when people consider the advantages of our society a result of government, and not of the people.
  16. Roads are paid for voluntarily through gasoline taxes and user fees, and therefore is not theft. If you think about it, all services can be paid for this way.

    Another distinction to make in taxes is Federal and State. IMO, your state has every right to tax 100% of your income but the Federal government most certainly does not. The people do not have proper representation on a Federal level.

    It wouldn't be such a scary world without the coercive taxes...
  17. #17 UnbyJP, Sep 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009
    Yeah! Except no... cuz they tax non-citizens too. Legal immigrants and permanent residents. By the way, you remember that little 9/11 attack thing? I guess a country might not be able to attack us, but I find that highly unrealistic considering supposedly a bunch of Muslims with box cutters can.

    You don't get unemployment unless you meet certain requirements. Lots of times this includes working over a certain amount of hours per week and having worked the same job that you lost for over a certain number of months. That means that the people really struggling, those that can only get low wage, limited hour part time jobs, and often only seasonal or temporary positions that last only a few months, can't file for unemployment when they do need it, despite being the group of people who need it, and deserve it most.

    These aren't unemployed scum, they're actual members of the work force who do crap jobs, that are often more physically demanding, and stress inducing, but their lack of officially recognized education and language barriers often pigeon holes them into an unstable job market.

    I'm fairly sure that if taxpayers stopped paying for roads, the corporations that rely on roads to distribute products across the country would fill in the void, maybe even do a better job at it. Sure, they'll probably compensate for the cost of road building and maintenance into their products, but that's how it should be. The more frivolous consumption a person wants to partake in, the more they pay.

    I'd feel much more protected by a security force composed of neighbors and the civilians around us than the joke of a police force we have now. Also, it's quite impossible to find anything positive about our police force if you disagree with the majority of the laws they are there to enforce.

    Respecting individual's opinions about weed, and respecting your country's official policy on it are two entirely different things. I have no respect for a country that encourages excessive alcohol consumption but demonizes responsible, recreational cannabis usage. And I have even less respect for the citizens who agree with our national policy based on retarded opinions (aka unfounded biases), based on lies, government propaganda, misinformation, and, worst of all, the desire to remain ignorant when confronted by those that try to school them on the subject.

    What programs do you think your money goes to that people can't live without? Can you elaborate as to how they wouldn't live without said program.

    Society is supposed to be composed of unique individuals, not controlled into one fucken norm/status quo by a government and it's media. I have no interest in taking part in a society that demonizes me or anyone else for the choice to use a benign substance. I have no respect for a society that destroy cultures. I have no interest in interacting within a society that values money, appearance, sports worship, retarded media, alcohol, blind loyalty, and military force over actually laudable, virtuous values.

    Basically, ever time I go out and interact with people, I have to assume a fake ass personality, and keep from divulging anything personal about myself because otherwise, experience has proven to me, that no one can or will tolerate my views and feel the need to not only avoid, but in some cases mistreat me for them. If that's what you call a 'society' well then yeah, you can take it and shove it.

    A road isn't a fucken society, nor is it a product of society. It's a fucken road, built by construction workers, contracted by government, paid for by tax dollars, paid by people that, first, aren't even within the society I am in (and please don't respond with some ridiculousness like the whole US population is a society), and, to reiterate, I don't consider myself a member of this society made up of these taxpayers anyway.
  18. How do you figure? If 100% of my income is taken from me then how exactly can I be considered free? If I can't spend my money the way I want, if it is confiscated before I have a chance to do anything for it, then it can hardly be said that I am free. It doesn't matter if the government takes 1% or 100% of your income. The fact that they forcibly take anything from you means that they have made the assumption that your labor, your time and the fruits of your labor belong to them and they are allowing you to keep a percentage.
  19. Being a "citizen" of a country is nothing like belonging to a club or a frat house or anything else. You have no choice but to pay taxes when your government demands it. If you do not then you go to jail or worse. I like what you said however, "I pay my taxes and I know that no other country in the world is going to fuck with us, protection." Kind of like the mob right? If you don't pay up they come and break your legs. Well...arrest you and confiscate all of your stuff.

    I wanted to address one thing: If you lose your job that isn't my fault or anyone else's. Taking taxpayer dollars so someone can sit around after being fired from their job is not a moral thing to do. That is why they invented this concept called savings. Now, of course saving for unexpected things like job loss is made more difficult because the government steals as much money as they can get their hands on. Also roads and police can be provided cheaper and better through the free market.
  20. Please elaborate as to how taxation is not theft. Isn't theft the taking of something against another's will?

    Please explain why society would break down if we all stopped paying our taxes.

    Oh please tell me how I can stop paying sales tax, property taxes, income tax, estate tax, gross receipt taxes on my business, Medicare and Social Security taxes and the myriad of other taxes that must be paid? You are naive to think that you can not pay taxes in this society.

    You want to explain how driving on roads makes me a thief? I don't know what a public website is but how am I a thief by using it? And how the fuck can I be a thief by eating a bowl of cereal? Do you have any idea about what you are saying?

    Society isn't created by the government. Society would function just fine without the government. Government steals from society and uses its monopoly on force to screw things up.

    Please, SHOW me where I said I was a thief? I can't be a self-professed anything unless I've actually said it. All your rambling post has pointed out is that you enjoy stealing from others, rather, you enjoy allowing your government to steal from others, and you are a slanderer.

    I asked a question and you slander me by calling me a thief. Please, tell me WHY taxes are necessary? Why do you believe you must steal from others? How does society benefit from taxation? Answer the fucking question without the personal attacks.

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