my ideal society would be an anarchist society. i have my ideal views and my realistic for america views... unlike you who seems to think your ideal views will somehow work in america (or anywhere for that matter since your views are based on a complete logical fallacy)
The irony ensues. We can't have a society based on voluntary exchange, and persuasion through setting examples as opposed to forced social engineering through the state. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCM6TZgTMI]Its a MADHOUSE! (Planet of the Apes, 1968) - Edited - YouTube[/ame]
i honestly dont know where you guys are getting anything about the state from my views... what does workers controlling businesses democratically have to do with the state???? this is the only way to eliminate the state without fucking anyone over...
The state is a means of collectivism, aka coercion. It is a means to an end which utilizes a monopoly on force to serve out it's decisions. Collectives make decisions for the individual as well, under anarchism the collective would simply expect you to take the hand your dealt with, as it was given to you by the collective, not your own doing. Your individual decisions and behaviors may be overridden by the collective, if it is deemed preferable to the group. The collective may still use force to implement these decisions at your expense, the only difference being they do not have a legal monopoly on said coercion. Under coercion, at least one party will be worse off then they were before, otherwise coercion, would not be necessary. Under voluntarism, all interactions are mutually beneficial, all trades leave all parties better off then they were before, otherwise the trades wouldn't have been made. "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Frederic Bastiat
thats the thing... they're not voluntary... like i said working or starving doesnt make working voluntary... im coerced into it because i need money to survive.
Just as I expected, you can't give one single example of a transaction you would make on your own that would not give you a net benefit. You aren't coerced into working by anyone, you take it upon yourself to work because you need income to eat, have a place to stay, what have you. You take a job because it provides better ability to improve your standard of living, that is your choice to be made. Money is a medium of exchange that gives you the ability to trade your labor for the goods you desire. You aren't coerced into doing any of these things by anyone outside of yourself, that makes you the individual the one that initiates the exchange. Are you saying that you are coerced into these things by your own brain?
well then lets bring the question of why should one person be severely more benefited than the other? why should someone make profit off of my labor. why should i get $10/ hour if i make the business $30 an hour? all they did was hire me (not for lack of trying not to via drug testing and shitty wages) and then they can fire me for pretty much any reason they see fit. i work my ass of for them and all they do is rake in the money and give me the table scraps of my earnings. i make enough just to survive while they live in luxury. its not mutually beneficial. and dont just say "then work for someone else." because A. its not easy to find a job, and B. even if you do find another job they wont be any better.
Small business owners don't live in "luxury". The business owner most cover the costs of doing business, no small feat I may add. Between your paycheck, payroll taxes, social security & medicare taxes, electricity, water, property taxes, workman's compensation, rent (if they own the property or not), business license, etc etc, the owner isn't exactly swimming in a in-ground pool of 20 dollar bills all day. You were hired because your labor adds value to the goods/services provided by your place of employment. Supply and demand tells us what value will be attributed to your labor. This means you are not skilled labor, thus you are not going to be paid what you may deem your labor to be worth. It's a crappy situation to be in, but the only way to rectify this situation is to acquire the skills and qualifications deemed necessary by businesses for better payment, aka you must bring more potential to create greater profit to a company for them to give you greater compensation. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M10ufvIcrO8]The Minimum Wage Causes Unemployment (Part 1) - YouTube[/ame]
Why should the business owner make profit off of your work? BECAUSE THEY STARTED THE BUSINESS. They took the risk and put up the capitol to start the business, they invested the time to educate themselves on how to operate a business, and they went out and advertised to find the clients. Something that you have every right to do yourself, but you said you won't. Why? "Because I'm not a business man". That's fine, then you'll be a worker, and you'll get a worker's wage. You said why should a business pay you 10 dollars an hour when you make the business 30 dollars an hour. Because the business has EXPENSES. It has to pay for the property, the electric bills, the water, the managers, the product, the advertising etc etc etc. If the business paid you the $30 dollars an hour you made, then the business would make 0 profit and go bankrupt... Wow, I'm amazed at what a piss-poor understanding you have of business and economics.
they could at least be fair and give the worker 2/3 of what he earns rather than 1/3... or at the very least half...
not everyone can be "skilled" even if everyone was there would be people with degrees cleaning toilets. someone has to do the shitty jobs why shouldn't they make enough to live a somewhat enjoyable life? and bullshit that minimum wage causes unemployment. that was debunked in the last thread.
The owner is being fair, they have to give the customer a good price to bring in revenue, and on top of all the expenses they have to endure to keep the business open, they still have to compensate you. If the owner pays the employee more then his labor is worth, it will simply cause the business to charge their customers higher prices, resulting in less business.
Some business owners do. But it's the business owner's choice of what he wants to pay you. If you don't think he's paying enough, then you can take your labor elsewhere and try to sell it to someone else. Like xmaspoo said, the only real way for you to make more money as a worker, is to increase your skills. The more skills you have, the more money your work will be worth to business owners. Btw sorry about that piss-poor understanding comment, but it appears to me you're remaining willfully ignorant?
Why should someone working minimum wage be enabled to live beyond their means? This is a recipe for disaster. Their labor simply doesn't bring enough profit to the employer to warrant a greater compensation. I'm sorry if you want people that flip burgers all day to be able to go out and buy a home and a new car, have 3 children, pay for their child's college education, etc etc. It's a fairy tale.