Hi all, infrequent poster but Ive been around the forums for years. Been running no till soil for almost a couple years now and recently upgraded my lighting and changed my 30 gal pots out for 2x4 beds. Last couple rounds were some of the lowest maintenence, best yielding and tastiest herb Ive ever grown. Kinda thought I had it down... But no, as my current flower cycle progressed I started noticing some weird growth on lower, light deprived buds. I picked most of them off and didnt think too much about it as most of the plants looked very healthy and upper growth seemed normal. Approaching harvest now Im noticing more of the weird lower buds and want to make sure this isnt anything serious and doesnt happen again in the future. Im thinking possibly just overfeeding but Im not really sure what to make of it... Thinking of plucking most of them and going straight water for a while? Plants are in 2x4 beds, on sips filled with the no till revisited soil mix (plus liming and extra aeration). Been running well for a few rounds so Im pretty sure it wasnt my original soil mix. These buds have been forming on a few different strains including 2 Ive run for a long time so Its not genetics. Climate is usually pretty good too. I did some research and the only other reference I found to something similar was this thread, his pics are good and he described it well but never found resolution: Help! strange looking buds To make matters much worse as I was examining the weird growth I found another scary, new to me problem. Im pretty sure I have fucking aphids! Noticed a sticky coating on several leaves and a bunch of white bugs stuck to them. Flipped over a leaf and saw a cluster of little sesame seed looking bastards that look like the ones on my brussels sprouts outside. Think I must have brought them in myself as Ive never seen this problem inside and with 2 weeks till harvest I dont know how to proceed. Looks like it may be just on one plant in my small room but Im not sure yet and they seem to be spreading quickly there. Think Im going to try to remove infested growth and give the room, beds and lower growth an ipm (and maybe spinosad) to try to cut back their food source. And other ideas? Anything safe to spray this late for aphids?
Spray? No not really anything that won't linger. I suggest a major defoliation to minimize their effects
I know. Terrifying right? Havent seen more than fungus gnats and an occasional thrip in there for years. Im really hoping theyre just in the one small room that is about 20% of the total grow. Gonna be a huge blow and a lot of work if theyre in the big room...
Funky. Reminds me of callus formation when I was messing around with plant tissue culture/micropropagation several years ago... In a test tube/petri dish scenario, this type of cell growth is brought on by imbalance of plant growth hormones. Have you been over applying things like coconut water or SST's by chance, soil or foliar? Could also be a reaction to the aphids. I dunno. Very strange indeed... Callus (cell biology) - Wikipedia Could you take some better pic's of the affected flowers under normal lighting?
Hi waktoo. I just realized how bad the lighting is in most of my house, phones camera isnt great either. Heres another shot though. The link I added before had pics and a good description of what looks like a very similar problem to me. Curled, stunted leaves and hard, chunky, dry calyx formation that almost look like seed pods. Also very little smell on the effected areas. I think theres definitely a possibility that you hit the nail on the head with the pgr's. I had noticed some twisting leaves last grow or two after mbp/fulvic/silica/aloe feedings. I attributed it to the fulvic and cut way down on that but it certainly could be overapplication of the other additives too. Pretty sure its not the aphids as this problem has been around a bit longer. Bet it helped open the door for them actually. So, how would you attack my problems?
Other than flushing the soil (which is impractical in raised beds), I really don't know. IMHO, the best you can do right now is to truly "water only". No additives of any kind. Is the soil in your new raided beds a new mix, or are you using recycled soil? I'm curious though, are you able to easily work any of those little growth nodules from the affected flowers, like with a pin? If so, some more pic's of that possibly? As for the aphids, I would continue with neem application, perhaps at a reduced rate (like half). I do believe Jerry has had success battling bugs (mites) up to the last two weeks of flower using neem, with none of the usually reported "taste/flavor" affects that are so commonly associated with its use after two weeks of flowering. Rinsing residuals off prior to harvest may help with that (the "flavor" thing).
The soil is a mix of new and recycled from the old 30s. Probably 3rd round in the beds. Im gonna try water only for a while and hopefully its back on track before I need to transplant the next round in. Think maybe replacing my mulch layer might help? I'm sure theres lots of crusted up mbp and other topdressings in there still. And I do remember reading Jerrys post on that but hoped I'd never have to try it. Do you know if he was leaving things out of the ipm recipe? I assume 1/2 strength neem/silica/aloe and leave the essential oils out? I already defoliated the heavily infested areas and will probably give a good spray this eve. Since its hopefully only the one or two plants in that room it should be easy to even give them a pre harvest bath if necessary.
Not sure about the mulch layer. I don't mulch. Sure, the residuals will add more to the mix slowly, but I think your problem is with concentrated "whatever" that's pervasive throughout the soil column. I'd be very wary of planting young plants in your beds any time soon (next round?). Neem is an "essential oil", like rosemary, spike lavender, lemon balm, habanero, etc. Hard to get rid of the bugs without it. Never, EVER, think that just one or two of your plants are infested. If one or two are obviously infested, they ALL are, to some degree.
I knocked the (Ahimsa) neem oil from the usual teaspoon per gallon down to a quarter teaspoon per gallon - and I got rid of the spider mites during flower by simply continuing every 48 hours so that they never had a chance to re-establish - and it worked well. I am mite free for over a year now - (knock on wood!). J
Yup. Putting the new plants in for next round is definitely the thing worrying me most. Like I said I can sorta flush and Ive got almost 3 weeks of straight water till they need to transplant. I do think Ill change out the mulch as continuing residuals certainly isnt going to help. Is there anything I could add to help break down and move out whatever is causing the problem? Compost, EM, etc? And yeah, i realize that neem is an oil. Just thought maybe some of the more fragrant oils might linger longer and potentially effect smell/flavor. I actually just read that lavender is good for aphid control though so im thinking even just dousing the room should slow their appetites. Also, very good advice about assuming that the infestation hasnt spread. Ive made that mistake before. My main room does appear clean though so im just gonna light spray around the edges and under canopy instead of dousing the buds in there. Only two weeks to go so I think I can make it.
Thanks Jerry. So you (and I assume other testers) really tasted no difference? And you sprayed right up to day of harvest? Anything else added into your spray bottle such as silica, aloe, etc?
I used my regular mix of the (1/4 tsp/Gal) neem and a little silica to emulsify. I mix the proper amount of neem and silica with a little warm water in a glass measuring cup first to emulsify and then add this to the proper amount of water. I find it emulsifies better than trying to mix it all together in the large amount of water. I'd stop spraying 10-14 days before harvest just to be sure, and with any pesticide - organic or not, it's never a bad idea to spray the hell out of the plants the last several times before harvest with clear water just to rinse everything off well. I had the same results with the 1/4 teaspoon of neem that I got with the full teaspoon - diligence and repetitive spraying every 48 hours is KEY - and with a solid pump sprayer, being 110% sure that you hit every single leaf and always paying close attention to the underside of each leaf - where pests (and eggs) like to hide. After several weeks of every 48 hours you can knock it down to spraying every 3-4 days but keep a close eye on things with a magnifying glass to make sure the plants are clean of pests. A few weeks more of every 3-4 days and you can knock it down to once a week. Getting rid of pests is always about not just killing the pests but even more importantly breaking the egg cycle. It's the repetition that takes care of this because you end up killing juveniles that are too young to lay eggs. I'm sure you already know but don't ever spray under bright lighting and especially with oils. Try and get in the habit to spray right when the lights go out. A low intensity light to see what you're doing is fine - I actually just use a single incandescent bulb to spray by myself. I also highly recommend switching the neem for either a different essential oil or Spinosad to make sure that the pests don't build up a tolerance to one type of pesticide spray. HTH J
Thanks Jerry. Seems like I can get about a week of spraying in and Im pretty confident that I'm gonna be able to stop em dead. Pretty sure theyre nowhere near the problem that the borg (spider mites) are. I definitely have spinosad in the rotation but I try to use it very infrequently. Ive read that its bad for the microherd but it sure works wonders for smiting thrips. What do you think about BT? I also have some mosquito dunks I bought a while back but havent tried using em. Lastly, yes, I always emulsify my neem seperately. To take that a step further Ive found that mixing a little warm water into the shotglass after mixing the neem/silica will help it emulsify into the larger volume even better. Sorta like making a roux, just a little bit at a time. El Rancho. To be honest I need to start keeping jounals again. Everythings been so smooth and easy the last couple years that I started slacking . On average I think I do about 1-1.5 cups mbp (to an approx 75g bed) every 1.5-2 weeks. I do think I slipped a tiny bit extra in with a couple neem/kelp/VC topdressings as well. Fulvic I had been using at 8-10 ml per gallon but I halved that a couple months ago. I had also been using a tiny pinch of tm7 I have laying around once a cycle but havent touched it for a while. Any thoughts? Guess I should also mention my couple of nonstandard practices... first my beds are on swick trays so they mostly get bottomwatered. Could effect how well the topdressings get incorporated maybe? Suppose theres also the chance that some things could buildup in the trays... Secondly, I dont run true no till. I veg in 5-6 g of recycled soil and then transplant to the beds for flowering. The girls do get an extra couple weeks of veg in there but the soil in the beds is pretty much always in flower. I suppose that could make a difference in what gets used and needs to be replaced vs soil that runs whole life cycles?
That full-power is for real. Not to be played with. I use 1/2 dose on everything and never more then once a week. Last summer I pushed the limits too far on a tomato plant just to see what happens. Little House of Horrors for sure. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Lots of progress today. Got the old mulch pulled off and flushed out my swick trays. Gonna give the beds a couple days to dry up and then fresh mulch and a heavy topwatering to start trying to flush the soil a bit. For the aphids I did some more defoliation and a heavy ipm spray on the infested room plus a light ipm on the veg/big flower room. I also did a heavy essential oil spray (mostly lavender) around the floor/edges of the rooms to hopefully make them unappetized. The second plant in the infested room had very little sign of aphids and the veg/big room still seem clean. Gonna follow up with sprayings every 48 hrs. Think I may have caught them just in time but fingers are crossed.
Just like Captain said fulvic acid can really cause some strange growth. I don't really use it at all anymore. I'm not on IG, but I have heard reports of people overdoing MBP and it causing strange growth. Again MBP is something I don't use. If your bed is 2yrs old it has likely reached a point where it will need very little. From the 3-4yr mark my bed was water only with zero inputs aside from a lil aloe. Amendments 'crusting' on the soil surface isn't something that ever happens in my bed. I'm wondering if you keep that top 2-4 inches of soil moist despite the swick? I would dig around in that top layer and see if potworms are present. Certain indicator you're using too much MBP. How much soil does your bed hold? Should be around 75-100 gallons? Lastly, when I mix neem and silica, I like to use a small glass jar w a lid so I can really shake the hell out of it. Slowly adding more water to the jar. RD
Thanks ElRancho. The beds are actually only about 6 months old but more than half of the soil in them has been around for 2-3 years. They hold about 80 gallons each. I do add topwater every 2-3 waterings and with the mulch they do stay pretty regularly moist to the top. I definitely noticed a difference when I cut way back on fulvic and Ive used it sparingly since. I do think theres a very good chance I'm overdoing the mbp though and I definitely have plenty of potworms in there! A little reading suggests that potworms thrive in low ph that probably isnt ideal for my worms/plants so maybe a little corrrection is in order when I water next (wonder if silica is adding to that problem?). Anything you might recommend to help bring my soil back into proper balance?