Jesus Myth & Why It Endures

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by davros of skaro, Apr 8, 2016.

  1. For those interested on where the evidence leads.

    *Dr. Richard Carrier: The Mythical Jesus

    Mythmaking in the NT

    Why the Gospels Are Myth

    Acts as Historical Fiction

    Dr. Robert M Price: The Jesus Question

    New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

    New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash by Robert M. Price

    New Testament Interpolations & Forgeries

    Richard Carrier Blogs: Pauline Interpolations

    Legends2 - Errancy Wiki

    The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.

    James The Brother of The Lord, or Racist? - Spirituality vs Skepticism - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

    Ancient Greek pottery ( 4th century BCE) depicting women performing a passion play for Dionysus (God of Wine). They are in ritual "Omophagia" consuming the flesh (pulp/skins), and blood (wine) of the God depicted on a Tropaion (Trophy). Starting off the annual festival priests put casks of water in the God's temple which turn into Wine the next day. ;-)

    Bible Buried Secrets

    The Bible's Buried Secrets

    Who Was Moses (starts @ 10:20)

    Who Was Moses?

    **Praise Jesus "Serotonin" Christ & The Holy "Dopamine" Ghost!

    Neurochemical mechanisms EVOLVED for the drive to gather resources for the perpetuation of the species that does not take account of our PRESENT COGNITION. The root force behind ADDICTIONS like GAMBLING & MISTAKEN as a DIVINE PRESENCE by some. We are PATTERN SEEKERS, yearn for "WHAT FEELS GOOD", and when "MAYBE" is entered into the equation it has dynamic effects neurologicaly (our pitfall). Drugs like Cocaine, or Heroine release these REWARD neurochemicals, but thoughts like winning money, or John 3:16 is just as addictive.

    Dr. Robert Sapolsky: Dopamine Jackpot (Science of Pleasure)

    Dopamine Jackpot! Sapolsky on the Science of Pleasure

    SciShow: Chemistry of Addiction

    The Chemistry of Addiction

    SciShow: Why Am I Hallucinating

    Why am I hallucinating?

    Sleep Paralysis & Phantom Intruders

    Hypnagogic Hallucinations and Sleep Paralysis: Julie Flygare Narcolepsy Awareness Video

    Critical Thinking, Confirmation Bias, & You

    Critical Thinking, the Confirmation Bias, and You!-1.wmv

    SciShow: Science of Lying

    The Science of Lying

    Russian Fox Experiments

    Dmitry Belyaev and Fox Experiments

    Dr. Michael Shermer: The Believing Brain

    CFI-NYC | Michael Shermer: The Believing Brain
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  2. That's great and all, but jesus fucking christ, man. If you're going to post about something, FUCKING TELL US ABOUT IT. Posting a lurid title and then a bunch of links is titty bullshitty of the first order.

    Because, if you can't even be bothered to write about it, and it's your post, why would we be bothered to actually read or watch anything on there for more than a minute and move on? I'm betting you read and watched everything you linked to. Instead of dropping links, write us a summary and why you believe it. This is just a google result for a topic nobody searched for.
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  3. First off I expect very few here on these forums to be interested in this.

    The single star/asterisk (*) section is history, while the double (**) is science.

    The first 8 minutes of the first video (lecture) sets the premise in the history section.

    The entire first video (short clip of a lecture) sets the premise of the science section.

    For those that go on to enjoy the information? Please pass it on to others you feel would enjoy it also.

  4. And exactly WHO made this guy the authority on Jesus? You're listening to an idiot. Stop believing what somebody says just because they say it... Disprove Him yourself. You can't. There is absolute concrete evidence that he existed on earth over 2000 years ago AND that he still exists today. I pray you find a clearer path or open up your mind to the truth. We have very little time left here on this earth and you better get your heart right before it's too late. TWW
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  5. So what is this "absolute concrete evidence" that he still exists today?
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  6. An unshaken act of faith is his only concrete evidence and sadly, that will be enough for others as well to believe.
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  7. Dr. Carrier is a PhD in ancient history.

    Dr. Price is a PhD in New Testament studies.

    I fact checked what they say, and it's the truth.

    Jesus is not as historic as people portray him to be.
  8. are you an alien? dudebraman chill. I'm not a christian but ive gotten high enough to look at it as: a state of mind increasing positiveness . Theres alot of narly stuff we do to things to get our agenda. Religion being a major one.
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  9. That's the power of the Holy Dopamine Ghost. Just Google "Dopamine Reward System" & "Dopamine in relation to addiction".

    Over a decade ago I worked for 48 hours straight doing a project. I went to sleep, and long story short I woke up minutes later. I thought I was having a spiritual event. Objects had an aura like sheen around them, I felt euphoric, I was open to suggestion (nonsense made sense). I then realized it was in my head.

    That's when my research on my experience lead me to the Holy Dopamine Ghost.

    I always wondered why people held so strongly to illogical beliefs, and habits. The Holy Dopamine Ghost strengthens neurological pathways in order to repeat thoughts, and, or actions.
  10. My Avatar is an alien scientist from Skaro.

    We are electrochemical machines that are easily fooled.
  11. The most concrete evidence for Jesus existing are physical manuscripts from less than 200 years after his death.
    The oldest gospel fragment is from the gospel of john and is from 90-110 CE (Rylands Library Papyrus P52). Historians believe that the original gospel of john was written in 60 AD, based of its contents. That is a gap of 30 years, which is rare considering that paper was a luxury, and impressive for ancient history. When people find ancient texts, their first response now is to essentially place it on ebay, or to burn them. Not to give them to museums.

    Monasteries after 700 AD also sold their library texts in scraps as magic amulets and spells across Europe. They also burned texts in greek that they could not read on the basis of witchcraft. they could not read Greek writing.

    The Alexamenos graffito in Rome explicitly depicts someone worshiping a donkey on the cross, complete with a picture. The graffito dates from 200 AD. Tertullian in Ad nationes 1:11 et 1:14 describes this.

    Historians believe that the gospel texts circulated around the same time as the gnostic and deuterocanonical books. Since we are talking about Christ, and not aspects about the divinity of Christ we can include Gnostic texts as evidence. There are 54 of them, and the Gospel of Thomas created before 200 AD. Irenaeus responded to several in writing, meaning that they date before his death in 200 AD.

    Gnostics were hated by trinitarian Christians, and the catholic church systemically burned their books whenever they found them. The only books that we have from them are the ones which were buried in dumps or secret caches instead of being burned.

    The "Jesus myth" fails as a historical theory, as it does not explain the reason that all of the Christian and many of the Gnostic texts describe the same person. It does not explain the name christian appearing in roman literature.

    Suetonius on Christians, from his Twelve Ceasers:
    Claudius 25
    "Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome."
    (49 AD)

    Acts of the Apostles (18:2)
    "And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, a man of Pontus by race, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome: and he came unto them"

    Early 100 AD writing was done phonetically, so Chrestus would have had the same meaning as Christus.

    Mara bar Serapion on Jesus: (Mid to late 100 AD):
    What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, live in complete dispersion.

    A valid historical theory must consider all evidence. We do not ignore the Nuremberg chronicle because it depicts magic. Why ignore biblical texts because they contain miracles?

    Was there some biblical conspiracy on three contents to fake Jesus' existence, while Christianity was illegal? Should Suetonius be ignored just because he mentions Christ?
  12. Probably portrayed better than William Wallace. The movie Braveheart added miracles that did not occur, laws that did not exist at that time, and were not even heard of until much later. That idea of a nationalist guerrilla, as he was portrayed, did not exist for centuries after his death, when nationalism was created. Pretty much everything in the film is wrong.

    George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Ulysses S. Grant, the South, the civil rights movement, and the roman empire are portrayed unhistorically.

    One of the intolerable acts which led to the boston tea party was the inability to invade and commit genocide against native populations. The Quebec Act of 1774 was intended to keep aggressive American settlers away from land held by native and french immigrants in the Ohio river valley and beyond. America was founded with genocide clearly in mind.
  13. I appreciate you writing that large post. I really do. But I was specifically asking The Widow White to explain their "concrete evidence" that Jesus Christ still exists TODAY. They made a highly specific and controversial claim, and I'm looking for that proof.
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  14. This thread TRUELY needs to be moved to the "Religion, Beliefs, and Spirituality" forum...

    In the sense that anything posted here should be considered "relevant"...
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  15. #16 waktoo, Apr 12, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2016
    You should read more, out of your own comfort zone...

    Your "evidence" reeks of apology, and those that prescribe to such...

    Chrestus/Christus... Gimme'a break... :rolleyes:

    Here's a textual rebuttal from some random dude that's done quite a bit more research than the rest of us have, apparently...

    Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

    Historians contemporary to the life and times of Jesus Christ DID NOT write about him...
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  16. Plutarch wrote "Life of Romulus". This is a history of the son of the God Mars, born of a Vestil virgin, founded Rome, died then resurrected. Even if we had Plutarch's original copy (not a scrap of paper with an incomplete word) does it make Romulus real?

    Mainstream secular scholars (not fringe, crank, or faith based) place the four canonical Gospels as written between 65-125 CE (Common Era). The first Gospel is Mark 65-75 CE (They are anonymous and named by Church tradition). Mark has no Nativity scene, the original ending has the woman running away from the empty Tomb "telling nobody because they were afraid" (Jesus post crucifixion appearance, Xtians able to drink poison, handle deadly Snakes is a centuries later interpolation). The next Gospel Matthew adds the Nativity, post crucifixion appearance, corrects Mark's geographical mistakes, and misunderstanding of Judaic laws.

    The earliest Christian writings are the seven nonpseudographical letters (Pauline Epistles) of Paul 50-60 CE. The first lecture I linked Dr. Carrier shows that Paul is actually talking about a celestial Jesus that was never on Earth, but God's "firstborn" ArchAngel. The first Christians were looking for hidden meanings in the Old Testament (Bible code) and took verses out of context. The later Gospels started out as spiritual allegory set on Earth, but over time became historic doctrine.

    Keep in mind that Christianity went through a filter, but the clues are there.

    We know the Gospel writers used the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament). The same translation mistakes of the Septuagint appears in the Gospels.

    If I drew an Ass faced Batman to make fun of a kid that believed Batman was real? Does that make Batman real?

    If I wrote Star Trek fanfiction, does that make Kirk and Spock real?

    The apocryphal Gospel of Peter has a walking talking Cross so it must be true.

    Yes. One cache hastily buried in the sands of Egypt has the complete sayings of a Pagan teacher. This texts came with a half finished Jesus saying the same thing as the Pagan. They were just putting things in Jesus's mouth till they heard that the Jesus police were coming, dumped everything in a Pot, and buried it.


    Harry Potter being created by J.K. Rowling fails as a Theory because I can find Spanish kids reading the Potter Books, and dressing up like Harry Potter.

    I can make the argument for interpolation, but I will go the simple route. This is evidence of Christians in 1st century Rome and no historian doubts Christians being in 1st century Rome.

    Keep this in mind. There was a whole lot of Jews in Rome around this time. An order of expulsion of them would be some task.

    Chrestus means "The Good". The perfect name for any small time cult leader.

    Christ means "anointed" which what messiah means. A High Priest to a loaf of Bread can be messiah. Cyrus the Great (Persian) was labled Messiah (Christ) by the Jews for releasing them from Babylonian captivity, and letting them have Judea back.

    Jesus is not named. The vague "Wise King" could be the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls among other candidates?

    The Christian text themselves hold evidence of Jesus's nonhistory, and that's not including the magic. Just go over what I posted to see for yourself.

    I will just post arguments Christians (C) thrown at me and my counter (Me).

    C: There's more evidence for Jesus than there's for Julius Caesar.

    Me: This is completely ridiculous. Not only do we have contemporary accounts for Caesar, we have his own writings that lead Archeologists to his lost battle sights. We even know what he looks like with Statues, and Coinage.

    C: Jesus is the most documented man in history.

    Me: Your only evidence are the nonpseudographical letters of Paul, and the four canonical Gospels. Just because they have been copied millions of times thanks to the Printing Press, it does not multiply the documentation.

    C: Jesus lets John the Baptist Baptize him. This meets the criteria of embarrassment which is a marker of an historical event.

    Me: What embarrassment? John represents a rival messianic sect. During the Baptism the sky opens up, the Holy Ghost comes down, God announces his approval of his son, and John later loses his Head. The embarrassment is all John in true literary artifice of handing authority to Jesus' s teachings. Even the events around the crucifixion is halmarked as literary creation. For instance the Pharisees conspire to take Jesus at night to avoid a riot, yet they crucify him in broad daylight. Keep in mind this all during the most holy day of the year which the Priests have many duties to perform. Realistically they should have jailed him, and executed him after the Passover Pilgrims went home. They could have just followed Torah law and stoned Jesus on the spot for blasphemy.

    C: People would not give their lives for something that is not true.

    Me: Going by your logic. The Heavens Gate Cultists are zooming around in a Spaceship in their new space bodies. There's also plenty of 72 virgins for exploding Muslims.

    C: The consensus of scholars say Jesus existed.

    Me: It was not long ago that the consensus of scholars believed that the Biblical patriarchs like Abraham, Joseph, and Moses existed. This has changed. Jesus myth is slow coming because of it's influence, and false assumptions which are often faith based.

    C: The Gospels depict historical places, and people.

    Me: Spiderman is depicted in New York City, So is he real?
    Read what Philo of Alexandria, and Josephus say about Pontius Pilate, and see if it matches up how the Gospels portray him.

    C: Josephus mentions Jesus twice.

    Me: I hear this so many times because it's the only nonChristian reference to Jesus in the 1st century (They need this very badly). Going the simple route just read both passages in their entirety. The "Who's called Christ" passage play close attention to the last sentence (hint: Son of Dameus). The other one ("About this time") just snip it out, read about Pilate, then go straight to the sex scandel, and pay attention to the first sentence.

    C: We have B.C. and A.D. so it must be true.

    Me: A.D. is just abbreviated Latin for "Year of our Lord" that a Monk came up with centuries later. The Gospels that do have a Nativity narrative contradict each other on Jesus's supposed birth year, not to mention Dec 25 is what the Church came up with to compete with Pagan celebrations around that time.

    C: You just want to sin with no accountability.

    Me: Don't we all? LOL!

    Seriously...I do not go around punching people in the face because it's not nice, and I do not want to be punched in the face. I do not need a dictator from outerspace that police my thoughts to figure that out.

    What kind of Red Herring off topic crap is this?
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  17. #18 Techno mechanical fox, Apr 14, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
    I took Latin at a University Level. Latin in in his period was often written phonetically because Latin and writting was seen as a luxury in ancient Rome.

    Ancient Rome did not have the internet. Posting some random stuff from someone else does not make you smarter or more knowledgeable and does not destroy Occam's razor.

    You have no idea what textual means, because if you did, you would not try to dispute the graffito or the existence of carbon dated manuscript evidence. I actually listed two sources that wrote about Jesus.

    Your link does not address my argument and is not used by you as a citation or reference, and therefore is neither a rebuttal nor a response to what I said.
  18. "davros of skaro, post: 22521618, member: 661939"]Plutarch wrote "Life of Romulus". This is a history of the son of the God Mars, born of a Vestil virgin, founded Rome, died then resurrected. Even if we had Plutarch's original copy (not a scrap of paper with an incomplete word) does it make Romulus real?

    Plutarch wrote "Life of Romulus". This is a history of the son of the God Mars, born of a Vestil virgin, founded Rome, died then resurrected. Even if we had Plutarch's original copy (not a scrap of paper with an incomplete word) does it make Romulus real?

    1. Plutarch is not a source for the Romulus creation myth. Romulus existed several centuries before Plutarch was born.

    2. The existence of Romulus as a king is potentially real. Romulus may have been based on a real person, born in a normal way. Romulus would have defied himself like later emperors, and generations later, ended up in a creation myth.

    This is a far more reasonable theory than some conspiracy about Romulus being created out of nothing later on to control people’s minds.

    3. The difference between Romulus and Christ is significant. More written works existed about Christ within 100 years of his death than Romulus, and Romulus’ entire existence is not spoken of by any source outside of Rome.

    Founding of Rome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    , “born of a Vestil virgin, founded Rome, died then resurrected.”

    This is not part of my argument. Nice try. I never made any arguments concerning these claims, and do not intend to. My arguments were to address the Jesus Myth as a failed hypothesis, not any other statement outside of his physical existence.

    I never made any claim of how he got there, what he did, or how he died.

    “Even if we had Plutarch's original copy (not a scrap of paper with an incomplete word) does it make Romulus real?”

    This is not how history works.

    If Plutarch wrote about Romulus it means that Plutarch thought that Romulus was real. If two other people think that he is real, he may have existed in some form. In history these are called sources.

    Historians would then look for conflicts of interests, and examine the context of the evidence.

    There are very few ancient texts in full form, very few originals, which are called autographs, and creating copies was extraordinary expensive.
  19. Mainstream secular scholars (not fringe, crank, or faith based)

    First off, people who study history are called historians. Scholars just refers to people who study a subject

    II. It is perfectly legitimate to hold a religious view and to study a topic. There are no separate drinking fountains in History. Insulting someone’s religion as a means of Historical discussion is seen by academic professionals as puerile and not professional.

    place the four canonical Gospels as written between 65-125 CE (Common Era).

    I never said anything else.

    “The first Gospel is Mark 65-75 CE (They are anonymous and named by Church tradition).”

    No, some of the Gospels do in fact mention authors within the text.

    Besides that, I actually cited many Gnostic gospels as evidence as well.

    “Mark has no Nativity scene, the original ending has the woman running away from the empty Tomb "telling nobody because they were afraid"

    This was not part of my argument, and was not important to my point, so you speaking in an echo chamber with yourself. It is moot.

    “(Jesus post crucifixion appearance, Xtians able to drink poison, handle deadly Snakes is a centuries later interpolation).”

    Nice echo chamber there.

    The next Gospel Matthew adds the Nativity, post crucifixion appearance, corrects Mark's geographical mistakes, and misunderstanding of Judaic laws.

    Still in an echo chamber.

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