Islam, Redux

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by Zylark, Sep 15, 2007.

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  1. I wish people would wake up and realize that monotheistic religions are not compatible with democracy. They never were, and they never will be. democracy means putting the authority in the hands of men, but monotheistic religions like Christianity and Judaism rule from religious authority governed through monarchs that are established by God( what many are brainwashed to believe is synonymous with dictatorship)

    It doesn\'t matter if some people in the middle east want democracy. It\'s not compatible with Islam. But the truth of the matter is that people from middle eastern culture do not want democracy, their way of life is totally agianst it and is not compatible. That\'s why there has been so much delay in setting up a government in Iraq, because the people there don\'t want a democracy, and as soon as the u.s leaves it will fall apart and turn into a falsley democratic velied dictatorship. They do not compromise when it comes to morality, niether do Christians (what the bible teaches that is), but Islam teaches to defend and conquer for it\'s religious truth at whatever cost.True Christianity teaches that there is a war going on but we are called to peace and reconciliation until the final judgement by God. If you understand Abrahamic religions then you understand that a whole nation is responsible together. They don\'t have the same values here in a democracy, where if you don\'t vote then you\'re not responsible for your countries actions which you support and are a part of(which is fallacious).

    There are combating ideaolgies that are at work here, and they both demand global supremacy. That means democracy too. Democracy demands that the world is compatible with democracy, and the u.n. has been set up for that very purpose to
    dictate and enforce global supremacy just like Islam. So don\'t say democracy is so different.

    If you go after Islam, the only thing you can do is genocide, because you cannot overcome it by trying to shove Islam into a democratic mold, as many people have pointed out. And furthermore, how would you like your ideas and believes to be wiped off the earth through the power of a strong armed government.

    But if you beleive in evolution and we need to save ourselfs now , or you can find some desperate need for ethnic cleansing than I suppose genocide might seem reasonable to you just as it has to others in the past.

  2. First of all, atheism is not a religion....period.

    Second, im not walking on eggshells. Maybe thats what this world needs, less people walking on eggshells and more people telling it like it is. I dont hold religion to some high standard thats untouchable to debate, criticisms, or even questioning whether or not its good for the human race....which in my opinion, it isnt.

    However, by no means am I intolerant of religion itself. In a perfect world, religion could be a very positive thing for mankind. The problem is that this is not a perfect world and religion is a failed system. It may work for you, or this guy, or that guy, or that group of people, but as a whole in regards to the human just doesnt work.

    Of course I dont understand religion. Dont get me wrong, I understand the concept of it...but theres a huge difference between the idea of what its supposed to be and the reality of what it is.

    I think religious advocates live in that idea of what is supposed to be and fail to see it for what it really is....thats all im sayin.

  3. I agree with you, dude, it\'s all relative...:D

    Atheism is a religion if we define it as such. But, we don\'t, therefore it\'s merely a philosophy.
  4. It is not a philosophy, it is simply not believing in something that has no proof. Is not believing that Santa gives you presents on Christmas Day a philosophy?
  5. Semantics. It\'s a belief. Not believing in something is a belief in and of itself.

    If you take (atheism, or any belief for that matter) for granted then it can become almost dogmatic.

    Science is an organized \"religion\" which calls itself \"objective\"...

    this is a distortion of reality, too:p.
  6. Actually Atheism is a religion, by definition, and even according to evolutionists:
  7. That article is a long-winded logical fallacy. It is putting words into people\'s mouths and inventing a conclusion from thin air. It is also funny how creationists try to spin it. They use words like dogma, lack of evidence, and other terms to try and discredit the science they cannot accept, failing to mention their beliefs are dogmatic and totally lacking in evidence. So, if what they say about evolutionists is true, why is it bad when the same argument applies to them?

    You also cannot have faith in atheism. It is a non-belief. You are simply not accepting something because there is no evidence to suggest it is true. If that requires religious faith, than it is religious faith that allows each and everyone of us to disbelieve a Unicorn comes to visit us every night. Is this a religion? Because I fail to believe in Unicorns? I have faith that they do not exist? I have no evidence to suggest they do, if they do, awesome, but until I have evidence there is no reason to believe in them. This is not faith. Because faith is believing in something without proof. If you had proof, you would not call it faith. It is a very simple concept that is lost on a surprising number of people. So, how can I have faith without belief? I can\'t, sorry. I do not believe in a non-belief, I simply have no belief. Understand?

    Hell, I\'m an agnostic anyway, but to call an atheist religious is just... well incorrect to put it politely, and is quite frankly an ad hominem. Attacking the person instead of the argument. Hand waving, moving the goal post, what wonderful tactics. :rolleyes:
  8. This is the problem I have with even calling myself an \"atheist\".

    Once you begin to lable yourself as a certain something, people will always define or classify you and your beliefs...such as calling atheists \"religious\". I\'d rather not throw myself into any defined category because of this reason alone. I\'ve always looked at the term \"atheist\" as a definition for someone who doesnt believe in any god, not as a form of religion.

    I dont practice any rituals, I dont gather with fellow atheists to sing songs about our lack of faith, and I dont refer to a set of rules placed in some books about how to be a good atheist. So no, I dont consider atheism a religion.
  9. l.t.:

    It does not put words into people\'s mouths, and I think that the quotes they used speak for themselves, frankly. And even without them the article proves it\'s point, that atheism is a religion since it cannot be conclusively proven. Creationists/Christians believes are that, and we accept that and admit it, unlike evolution suscribers. And we have evidence, even eternal evidence, but it is discounted a priori by naturalism. We never go around as evolutionists and go calling things facts which arn\'t facts. Evolution isn\'t a theory. Evolution is a hypothesis, it\'s an outlook on life. The bones need to be interpreted, everything needs to be interpreted, and they do this through thier naturalistic philosophy.
    Absolute nonsense. It is a belief. Noone has ever seen any organism gain any complexity, not one bit. Noone has seen animals evolve into another kind millions of years ago. Just because you have proof, btw does not mean you don\'t need faith. Christians have proof, and we also have faith, beause part of our proof is supernatural and cannot be observed by the human eye, and it therfore faith. This is the definition given in the bible: Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

    No, it\'s not attacking the person instead of the argument. It\'s pointing out the implications of suscribing to an atheist philosophy.

    The quotes speak for themselves, very clear.

    Hmm something to take it\'s place. What could that be?

  10. Labels are a part of life, they are necessary for mental recognition and differentiation. someone can say, \"I\'m a Christian, but I\'m not religious\" (As many people do), but they fail to recognise that Christianty is a faith based religion. Atheists who do not say they they believe in a religion also do not consider the implications of their belief in naturalism.

    And why is your name JesusC if you\'re an atheist? It\'s awful confusing.
  11. Yep:).

    I look at it as more of a continuum...

    atheism seems to be on the end where there is very little structure to the belief...

    Religious fundamentalists would generally be on the other end of the spectrum...

    but we all fall somewhere. Even nihilism is a belief system.

    Oddly enough, science and religion can be at either end of the spectrum;). Science and Religion are such broad categories that they are virtually impossible to define. These are wildly abstract concepts, that society tries to define as distinct entities when in fact, they are not:D.
  12. I think trying to characterize the actions of a group of people associated with a religion is pretty big-headed thing to do.

    All Muslims...just like all Christians, can be anything they choose to be.

    The fact that you see Islam, instead of Islamic extremism, in need of a solution worries me...and leads me to believe you are no better than the small sectof Islamist groups that believe in violent jihad against the world.

    I feel I have to explain something here as well....when I say small sect, I am referring to the group, pre-9/11, was was behind the attacks, and their foot soldiers...again at the time of the attacks.

    Now; however, we are dealing with a completely new problem. We went into Iraq to fight \"Al Qaeda\" and their allies (<important word) and through our, let\'s just say haphazard, strategy in Iraq, we have NOT won the support of the people.

    We have broadened Al Qaeda\'s allies to EVERYONE we have somehow wronged in the war, i.e., shooting a family in their house(their son sees it happen and joins the jihad because it has never made more sense that that moment when he saw his entire family fall at the hands of soldiers for no reason.) Maybe this kid, and his family, were praying that the Americans won because they couldn\'t handle the type of life they were living...but now, instead of a family on our side, we\'ve given the enemy one more soldier.

  13. It is quoting people out of context and using that as proof of something they never meant, so yeah, I would say it is putting words into people\'s mouths.

    The article, which I did read by the way, did no such thing. I explain it above and again you ignored everything I said because to do otherwise would admit you are wrong. Listen buddy and try to learn something. You cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove that someone does not exist, because if they do not exist, then they simply do not exist. There is no bits and pieces of evidence sitting around to show me something that does not exist, exists. It is a very simple concept, one that is not difficult to grasp, and one that is firmly rooted in logic. Religion is not religion simply because it cannot be proven, a myriad of other details make something a religion. Claiming atheism to be a religion is incorrect. It is a non-belief. You cannot believe in a non-belief. Do you understand that yet? As I said, it is quite simple. I do not have to prove that there is no God, friend, you have to prove that there is one. I am almost certain I have posted about the Burden of Proof before, if not, well, I am now. Learn about it. It is not my job to disprove your wild fancies. If I came up to you and claimed Santa just zipped down my chimney and gave me my Christmas presents early, would you accept my demand that you believe me until you can prove me wrong? Of course not, the burden of proof lies upon the one making the outrageous claim. My lack of belief is not an outrageous claim, because there is no evidence to warrant such a belief.

    Do you get it now?

    I would hope you believe what you preach is religion. It certainly is, and to deny that would be kinda bad. However, Evolution is not a religion, and if you knew a damn thing about it, you would understand why that is one of the dumbest things you could ever possibly say.

    You have zero evidence. \"In a old book is says things happened this way which contradicts what we know about the world... Uh... Let us believe the book instead.\" <--- That is your evidence, an old unreliable book. Wow. Awesome. Compelling evidence there man.

    You\'re talking about the \"facts\" of creationism as if they are \"facts\". People who support evolution call things facts that are facts. Perhaps you should go and look up the definition of that word.

    No, sorry, you\'re wrong. As I have posted to before and you ignored. Evolution is a theory. Creationism cannot even be called a hypothesis. You got this mixed up and backwards, but I understand why, you are too scared to realize your beliefs are hocus pocus and have no basis in reality. You so deperatly need for your god to be real, you are willing to ignore evidence, distort the truth, and lie to accomplish your goals. It is sad really.

    You keep calling scientific understanding philosophy, you keep calling scientific facts, garbage. Yet your computer works, your doctor can save your life, you can get medicines that will help you, you can drive a car, a plane can take you to another country very quickly, and we can send people into space. You know, for something that is so full of shit, it has a remarkable track record. I mean, shit, to think we got all this stuff to work when we are completely deluded and ignored the truth that \"magic man done it\". *shakes his head*. Open your eyes and take a look at the world, not the fantasy land you would rather live in.

    Incorrect, and when you show a creationist the evidence they simply say \"Well, that is not what we are talking about.\" or \"It does not show that at all!\". When asked why it does not show that, we get, what? Bullshit pilled upon steaming manure.

    We do not have to see it happen, we have the evidence that shows us. Do you discount foresic evidence? Should that be thrown out? Shall we toss DNA testing out the window too? I mean, where does it end, us living like the Amish \'cause obviously all our science is wrong and faulty? I mean, we apply it in the real world all the time and get results, but hey, that is just luck and happenstance. The magic man in the clouds casting his spells to make us think we\'re on to something, all in a massive conspiracy to delude the lot of us! WOW! I HAVE FIGURED IT ALL OUT. :rolleyes:

    Incorrect. If I have proof of something I do not have faith in it, I have knowledge of it. See the difference, buddy? Or do you need to me re-link to a dictionary so you can re-learn what the word means?

    Warm fuzzy feelings in the pit of your stomach are not proof of anything other than warm fuzzy feelings in the pit of your stomach.

    So what? That is not the definition of faith that we all agree on via our dictionary. It is just poetry, that line is poetry, a nice happy saying. It is not a fact, man. It does not matter if the Bible calls it evidence, you do understand what evidence is, right? Well, understand that and you will see what that definition cannot be right.

    It is not a philosophy buddy, it is a non-belief. We do not have a name for people who do not believe in Alchemy. I have explained this very well many times, if you still do not get it, then that is fine. It is not my job to teach the ignorant.

    Christianity is the most dreaded thing anyone has ever imagined. Christianity believes that pink fairy elves give them presents every Yule as a sign of divine love from their heavenly sister. <--- Hey! I spoke the words, they must be completely accurate, right? :rolleyes:
  14. Show me one single instance where it has been scientifically observed that new information has EVER been added to any biological information bearing system by natural processes. I challange you, I challange anyone who thinks they can. A single one! You cannot, it has never been observed and in fact goes against the very process of natural speciation which is a decrease in genetic information. And even if there was one the flood of harmful mutations would completely overcome any addition of information by mutations. But they do not add new information and this has been tested so many times in this past century in a laboratory it\'s more than enough proof. Even prominent evolutionists know this.

    You don\'t know what you\'re talking about. You don\'t even get the myth right. And norse mythology has nothing to do with true Christianity. I do not celebrate Christmas.Christmas is from pagan religion :

    (I don\'t believe every biblical assertion that site makes btw)

    Christmas is a ritual \"holyday\" traced back to Babylonian mystery religion.
  15. This is not a debate about atheism or evolution for that matter, and I\'d appreciate very much if it could be kept on topic.

    Valid points. But first, I have to say this. I\'m contending that islam is systemically a violent religion, not that all muslims are violent. Naturally there exist in islam moderates and \"we\'re muslim coz\' it\'s tradition, not coz\' we\'re all that religious\" kind of people. Hell, I even said so with regards to most Iranians not wanting to live under the current theocratic regime. Muslims for the large part want to be able to live their life to the fullest too, just like us.

    But unlike other major religions, islam is deeply rooted in violence, and it continues to be. As a tool for subduing people it is scarily effective. And people, muslims, cannot get over the subduement before the head is chopped off the beast. That is rooting out the mullahs, khomeinis, mufis and their brainwashed followers that spread, incite and support intolerance, enslavement, sexism, barbarism and terror.

    I am convinced that islam need to be marginalized in politics and society, not irradicated. As I believe all religions should be. Marginalized. As other religions already are. Getting rid of religions is impossible, but making them irrelevant in reasoned discourse between people, nations, culture, regions and world powers is not.

    As for the last point, yes, US response to the 9-11 attacks have not helped matters, especially with regards to Iraq. Talk about putting ones hand in a hornets nest and wiggling it around willy-nilly.

    But this did not start with 9-11. There were muslim terror long before that. And not only directed towards the west. Throughout the entire border between muslim and other regions, in asia, africa and europe, this terror have been going on for centuries. The recent attacks against the west have just made us westerners more aware of this religious violence. In Burma, Indonesia, Thailand, Phillipines and a plethora of African countries they\'ve known of this for centuries. We just haven\'t been keeping attention.

    So in short, stop making apologies for the muslims, ask them instead to take responsibility, and quite simply stop the violence.
  16. Of course it is a violent religion, I would argue that Christianity is a violent religion as well. Anything that separates us from people and sets up artificial differences is violent, or can easily become violent. What are we going to do about it, is there anything that can be done, should anything be done?
  17. I think that we should just settle this once and for all. All the religious folks can have Earth, it\'s all theirs. The rest of us heathens, non-believers and the like can go inhabit the rest of the Universe at our leisure.
  18. i was first introduced to islam,,, in 91, when i was in prison,,,,

    it seemed to me then a \'\'brother\'\' religion,,, a lot of the black guys were into it hard and heavy,,,, most of them had thier names changed,,,

    changing thier names to a islam name,,,( id love to go all out and tell you what i really want to say on this issue ) BUT________ id proably get banned,,,, so ill be politically \'\'CORRECT\'\' ____________

    it was a racial thing in the pen,,,, and then i get re-introduced to islam when these planes hit the buildings,,,,

    so to me islam,,,, really aint that much of a good religion to me,,,, but neither is none of the rest,,,,,,

    it justs seems to me and my past experiences with islam,,,, that it\'s a \'\'STATUS\'\' religion,,,, not a belief,,, religion,,,,,

    just my 2 cents,,,:devious:
  19. There is a problem with the whole premise on the thread.

    The arguments in this thread are based on the fact that extremism is somehow more prominent in areas where the TV/Mass media proposes it is.

    The problem with this supposition is that extremism is just that, extremism, it exists as 1% of the population, no matter where you are on the earth; regardless of race, religion or country.

    Actually I wouldn\'t be surprised if there was more extremism in the united states, simply because they are where the power center lies.

    The only reason why we think that \'extrmemist\' somehow more evident in other countries, is because there has been antagonizing of various countries all over the world, For example, look into woodrow wilson\'s dealings with Russia and Mexico; you might find something interesting.

    To this day the united states has purposely been atagonizing countries all over the globe. This is done partly because war spurs the western economy, and partly because it causes all the other countries to not be able to fight back meaningfully; because they must continue to repair their countries.

    It is like any capitalist system (think about credit card companies).... When you are on the bottom, you get kept there; when you are in the middle class you pay all the costs; and when your in the upper class you make all the rules, and make sure that the system stays intacked, so you maintain your power and money.
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