Islam, Redux

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by Zylark, Sep 15, 2007.

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  1. From the response from my previous thread(s), this topic is obviously not wanted. Personally I\'ll just mark that up as political correctness without direction.

    Now, before I go any further, I\'ll reveal the disposition of this post. Please take note that it is in reverse order of traditional argument. Just to dispose of the argument that I\'m somehow racist or islamophopic. And dismiss any idea of genocide.

    I do however further the idea of deicide. But that isn\'t really on topic. :)

    The solution: Who knows? It won\'t be non-violent in realistic terms. But there is a lot that can be done to soften the blow. First is for us in the western world to fuck them royally over and then show them the way. Kind of like the US did to Japan. Subdue a strong tradition that made no sense, to modern capitalism and democracy.

    No two ways about it. Democracy is crucial in the development of the world as a whole, and the islamic countries are seriously lagging behind. We got one planet, and there is no room on it for fundamentalist conflict. As per now, fundamentalism is most expressed by Islam.

    Islam. A faith, yes, but that is not all islam is. Christianity is a faith, as is Buddhism. There is a difference though. Whilst Christianity want moral superiority, Buddhism wants enlightenment, Islam on the other hand demands political power. Islam means quite literally submission. Wanting and demanding is two entirely different concepts.

    There is a reason why most, to the degree of almost all, conflicts in the world are centered around Islam. There is no getting around this issue. Islam is confrontational, violent. I am not saying the sole reason for many conflicts is due to Islam alone, far from it, just that conflicts are not helped by Islam being involved. That conflicts may even be amplified by the influence of Islam, and solutions denied.

    Let us not forget that whilst Christianity was influenced by a (fictional) good guy speaking tolerance, and Buddhism by a (fictional) good guy speaking insight, Islam was founded by a pedophile warlord emperor. Those values still exist in current Islam. The values of the emperor. The tyrant. The dictator.

    And is why Islam means submission in all and any real sense.

    Well, I will not submit. I will think freely thank you very much. As should all. Everyone. Credit given where credit is due, give me a christian anytime rather than a muslim. Muslims want to rule this world, this is explicit in the Quran. Our world. Our life. The one and only life we got. The one life we need to make the most of. That is the life Islam want to submit to ridiculous and cruel rules.

    Yes, there is christians wanting the same within some degree of reason, but those are few (in relative terms) and not taken all that serious (in relative terms). In muslim countries and populations however, it is policy. And they are many. And they do have quite the resources to fuck us all up.

    The Taliban was not fucking around when they blew up those ancient huge Buddha sculptures. They were not fucking around chopping peoples heads off for not being muslim or (gasp) converting to any other faith or non-faith. What is worse, the Taliban was not extremist in a muslim sense. Saudi Arabia is just as bad. Infact, the entire muslim sphere of influence is just as intolerant.

    So, simple question, is this to be tolerated? How can we as westerners, democratic people, look upon this in indifference?
  2. I can, because extremism can\'t be stopped. It is in every religion... so really your splitting hairs.
  3. You are wrong. Extremism can be stopped. We did it to the Nazis.
  4. Nazism still exists.
  5. Yes, and they are ridiculed, not taken seriously.

    There still exist those that believe in astrology, and they are ridiculed also.

    There will always be people who believe in stupid shit, but they are in an informed society a marginal group. Get my point?

    I can spell it out for you if not.
  6. Please do.
  7. Christianity only recently broke free from the Divine Right which kept the people entrenched in reverence of the monarch. Now it seems, that\'s being reversed. Not to mention Israel\'s Zionism, which, as far as I\'m concerned, is on equal footing with Islamic fascism.

    I\'d like to think that we could stir some sort of Guevara-esque people\'s revolution in Islamic states, perhaps they could even retain their beliefs without the tyranny. However, that\'s going to be hard to do with a Christian-run military out there protecting the interests of big businesses.

    Abrahamic religion in general is fundamentally rooted in unquestioning reverence to power-wielding public figures, and doing away with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in one fell swoop is the only way we can provide for the future of the east or west.
  8. What your saying is that religion is to blame and i can go with that, but going after the people of one religion is horrid, and not to mention extremism in itself.

  9. Well, yes. But how? A monumental task to say the least.

    Though, of the abrahamic religions, only islam is thus far untamed. Remember both christianity and mosaic faiths are secondary to the (secular) democratic principle. It ebbs and flows sure, but neither faiths demands control over all of society as islam do in both theory and practice.

    And for spelling shit out for those that do not get it (shakemytrees):

    Go live in Iran. Have fun.

    When shitheads control a society, you got no say. You only got a say in a democracy. You might even then have shitheads ruling, but at least, they can be replaced now and again, by popular vote.
  10. Civics and religion don\'t mix. Furthermore, i think you may be just a little bit jaded and apathetic to other religious states(The U.S.A. for starters.).
  11. Let us keep this on topic.

    Want to make accusations towards me, do so explicitly. I have tried, and the OP clearly shows this, to relate only towards the fundamental intolerance of islam, and the trouble that implies in any and all democratic discourse and tradition.

    I speak nothing but democracy. If I got a religion, it is democracy. That is the principle I live by. Islam is an enemy towards that principle. Care to prove me wrong?
  12. I\'m the one off topic?
  13. Yes. You tried to bring in to the debate whether or not the US is a religious state amongst other. Not a topic (and not true factually) in this thread.

    Now, get on topic. Is or is not Islam a systemic ideology, not just a mere religion in the western sense as per christianity and buddhism for example. Answer why islam is confrontational, and buddhism, janeism, thaoism and many christian traditions are not?

    Why did those muslim fundamentalist fly aircrafts into NY buildings. Bombed the london subways. Madrid trains. Bali disco\'s. Tell me. Why?
  14. Because of extremist! A point that you clearly cannot understand.

    How fucking hard is it to comprehend that this entire thread is an Oxymoron?

    Apathy is annoying as FUCK!
  15. Well, there are extremists of all kinds. Naturally. Not my argument. My argument is that islamic extremism is not only more severe, but also condoned if not outright supported by a substancial part of the muslim community.

    As opposed to for example the IRA and ETA who never got Papal support though they where (are?) catholic. They both received a healthy bit of condemnation from the vatican actually. At least in public. (I won\'t go into south american terrorism where the vatican was strangely quiet...)

    So tell me what major muslim orientation and public spokeperson that have condemned the 9-11 attacks? Or the London bombings. The madrid bombing. Or the Bali attack.


    Don\'t get me wrong, I am not saying _all_ muslims support this outrage. Far from it. I am saying however that Islam is systemic in its violence. It is a power tool that that particular religion use to enforce and spread their ideology. And that got to stop. No two ways about it.
  16. So what? You fight a war against an idea? You can\'t win those, the only thing we\'re doing over there is stirring up more anti-American sentiment. And can you blame them? Over a million iraqi\'s fled to syria to escape the war. 655,000 iraqi\'s are dead, and the religion still exists. And now we\'re occupying a country that posed no national threat to us and making it\'s people absolutely HATE us.

    There IS a reason why a lot of conflicts revolve around muslims, we\'ve been fucking with them for at least 50 years now! From overthrowing Iran\'s government to putting the shah back in power because they were planning on nationalizing the oil (which britain was profiting from) To Giving Osama weapons to fight the Russians, hell we even put saddam in power!

    Fact of the matter is, we are reaping what our foreign policy has sowed. I think we should just leave them the hell alone. But if you want to grab a gun and go fight an idealogical war that can not be won, go for it. But I see no reason to waste american lives and money on a war that is actually making us less safe.
  17. Yeah, agree with last poster much.

    In a real sense this situation is much a result of western (read: US/UK) meddling in the region. But now the troll is out of the box, and we need to deal with it. Especially us here in europe, where muslim immigrants are abundant.

    France is a mess at the moment. UK fares not much better, and in the major cities of the rest of europe there is a real culture conflict going on.

    Don\'t get me wrong, I love the interchange of cultures. And generally speaking, it is not a problem. Islam though is. As is evident by the violence that follows from muslim immigration.

    I just attended a conference of Emergency Room doctors and nurses. Amongst europeans and asiats near none used weapons in violent episodes. Middle east and north-african perps had near all weapon usage reported.

    This is a culture conflict. Well, dilemma at least. I know it is too easy asking all to be like \"us\". But I do know what is not acceptable, and fundamentalist Islam ranks on top, bar none.
  18. Perhaps immigration laws might serve you better?
  19. I must say, you sure dont seem islamophobic to me.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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