Is it scientifically impossible for consciousness to exist within reality?

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by dishin reg, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. This is something I've wondered for a while.

    Those with knowledge on electromagnetism know that visible light and illumination do not exist as they are perceived in the external world.

    They are simply non-colored non-illuminated waves of energy traveling at varying frequencies.

    My question is that since visible light and illumination do not exist within physical reality, yet we experience an illuminated and colored image all during our waking lives, where is this actually being experienced?

    Your brain is enclosed within a skull, it is pitch black within your head. If you slice open your brain it will simply be a lump of grey matter, no images, no color, no light.

    So if this image we are always experiencing does not exist within our brain, and cannot exist within physical reality, where is it that our brains are linked to that we do experience this?
     
  2. As a preface I just want to state that I might have completely misunderstood this but it makes zero sense to me. Ok I kind of agree that we don't see individual light particles/waves so they aren't perceived exactly as they exist and I assume by "external world" you mean the macroscopic world. I have no idea what you mean by illumination. Illumination to me is simply the visible result of light which to me can exist only as perceived.
    The jump from visible light not existing as perceived to it not existing in physical reality is a non sequitur. The sun exist within physical reality and it emits photons (light) so I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that visible light does not exist in physical reality. The colored world is created by objects that absorb and reflect different wavelengths which are then reflected by the lens in our eye to cone cells at the back of the eye. From there it is transformed into an electrical signal and sent through the optic nerve to be process by they brain where they will be experienced by said human.
    As explained under the quote above this, the images we experience DO exist within the brain which IS in "physical reality". So in conclusion no it is not impossible for consciousness to exist within reality.
     
  3. You're using the term "physical reality" to give meaning to your theory. We can't see the waves, yet we can see their effects. Just because our limited sight and senses don't allow us to perceive these miniscule building blocks doesn't mean they have to exist in "another plane". We have to remember that we're looking at this from a very narrow view and we shouldn't make assumptions based on others subjective experiences.
     
  4. [quote name='"dishin reg"']This is something I've wondered for a while.

    Those with knowledge on electromagnetism know that visible light and illumination do not exist as they are perceived in the external world.

    They are simply non-colored non-illuminated waves of energy traveling at varying frequencies.

    My question is that since visible light and illumination do not exist within physical reality, yet we experience an illuminated and colored image all during our waking lives, where is this actually being experienced?

    Your brain is enclosed within a skull, it is pitch black within your head. If you slice open your brain it will simply be a lump of grey matter, no images, no color, no light.

    So if this image we are always experiencing does not exist within our brain, and cannot exist within physical reality, where is it that our brains are linked to that we do experience this?[/quote]

    Your logic is flawed. From the very start we know we exist so Tue entire hypothesis is null.

    But secondly.light does exist what are you talking about?

    Images in our head aren't light they are memory and light is interpreted as colors based on wavelength.

    I don't understand what your trying to get at
     
  5. Yes photons and EM waves exist in physical reality, but these do not contain color or illumination in the external world, they only do after our eyes sense them and our brain processes the information.

    It is only after our brains paint these varying frequencies into color and illumination that we experience a colored and lit world.

    The world beyond our senses is colorless, it isn't even pitch black because black is a characteristic of color. Reality is simply colorless silent energy in different forms.



    Visible color is just as colored and illuminated as the radio-waves passing through your room at this very moment. It is made of the exact same stuff, it's simply traveling at a different frequency.

    If we could tweak how our brains process, we could see radiowaves as color instead of the current visible spectrum. In reality though neither radio-waves nor the VLS actually posses color.

    Visible color and light do not and cannot exist within physical reality because they are merely perceptions. But we are experiencing a colored and illuminated image, but if it cannot exist within our reality, where is it located?

    Where does consciousness exist? According to science it cannot be within reality, it must be beyond.
     
  6. #6 Paradox Master, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2012
    Yes the light is just a preconception, however it does exist in our physical reality. We wouldn't see the light if we didn't have an eye connected to our brain that could process light photons, and if nothing generated light photons. Both of the things I mentioned exist in physical reality, what you are trying to discuss is metaphysics, and that belongs in religion and spirituality, not science. Though I do believe both can go hand in hand, scientifically speaking light does not exist, but our perception of it does exist. Its not from outside our reality, both our perception and the light photons exist within this reality. Just as our brain, and neurons and consciousness exist within this reality.

    Edit: Slightly stoned, so not explaining myself well. I'll try to break it down, color is a perception based on the physical photons of light hitting your physical eye, and a physical signal connecting to your physical brain, giving you a mental picture with color. Does that clear anything up?
     

  7. Yes the cause of color exists (photons) but color as we experience does not exist with in physical reality.

    And our brains themselves exist within physical reality therefore no colored image could even exist within our brain. If no colored images can exist within physical reality, yet we are constantly experience a colored reality, consciousness must be beyond physical reality itself.
     
  8. Either you have discovered a truth, that is so mind boggling, so amazing that my mere mortal mind can not even comprehend it, that or your just not making any sense. I get what your trying to imply, but the answer is no. Scientifically speaking, color as we experience it does exist, it exists within our mind, which exists because of our physical brain.
     
  9. You still have a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of light. It's common to think that light does not contain color when in the fact the opposite is true as light contains ALL colors within a given spectrum. Photons within the range of around 390-750nm (visible light) contain all colors between red and violet which is what is clearly demonstrated when light is shone through a prism.

    It's not really though is it? Another way to think about this is with a variation on the "if a tree fall in the woods" but with light. So we can ask is the tree still green even if no one is looking at it? The answer obviously is yes, the sun still emits light within the visible spectrum which then hits the tree which reflects all colors but green.

    Seriously?

    I only quoted this because I just realized how easy multiple quotes are.
     
  10. No this is wrong. Yes the tree is still reflecting the EM wavelengths that we perceive as green, but the particles themselves are not green.

    We as humans perceive a tree to be green, but a bee perceives a tree in ultraviolet light, meaning the tree is a completely incomprehensible color to the bee as it is to us.

    So when no one is observing the tree, is the tree actually green, or is it a ultraviolet color?

    The answer is neither, because color is a perception and does not exist in the external world. Yes, electromagnetic waves still exist, but visible light are just as colored as radiowaves beyond senses. They themselves possess no color, it is only the conscious being that paints an actual color onto these things.
     
  11. The answer is actually both. The sun emits light in the ultraviolet and visible range which are both absorbed by the tree. Just because we are limited to the visible spectrum and bees are limited to the ultraviolet spectrum does not mean that it does not have a color. It means that the tree is green to those viewing with visible light and some specific wavelength in ultraviolet light.

    Humans and bees do have different perceptions as to what the tree looks like but it's green color and whatever it looks like in ultraviolet light are equally as real in the "external world". So these colors do exist in real life because despite what you keep repeating photons are color. Photons of wavelength 475nm for example are for all intents and purposes blue.
     
  12. o_O

    The whole point seems to be going straight over your head..

    Here I'll try once more.

    Electromagnetic waves and individual particles posses no color! Ask any scientist this, there is no actual visible color beyond our senses in a photon or EM wave.

    An EM wave reflected from a trees leaf IS not green itself.. The photon is NOT green. It is simply traveling at the frequency which our brains detect and turn into the color green. There is NO COLOR in the external world. A colorless wave is reflected and our eyes detect, which during the processing our minds turn this specific frequency into the color green in our vision of perception.

    You hear people saying "Photons of wavelength 475nm for example are blue" because that is the specific frequency our eyes detect and our brains turn into blue. Our brains do the coloring, because the world itself is colorless..

    Radiowaves, microwaves are all made up of the same exact thing EM waves are. They do not posses any color do they? THE EXACT SAME GOES FOR THE VISIBLE LIGHT SPECTRUM.

    It is only after the wave is perceived that our minds paint it with color.


    I really do not want to sit here and argue the basics of electromagnetism, because the fact that the world is colorless although is important, is not the main point I wanted to discuss in this thread.
     
  13. Consciousness is just a process, and perception of light waves is just a way the process can make a decision. Consciousness is just a byproduct of how a neural architecture operates. Objects have no color, darkness does not exist. Darkness is just lack of visual input (lightwaves), color is another neural byproduct.
     
  14. Colour is just a visual modality which our brains use to turn environmental data into information. Although the human eye cannot assign colours to the remained of the electromagnetic spectrum, we have machines that can do this on our behalf.

    Our interpretation of reality can be functionally self-referential. Even the solipsists concede the apparent tenacity of reality.
     
  15. #15 chiefton8, Aug 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2012
    You're defining color as the way in which the human brain and consciousness perceive different wavelengths of light. So of course, there is no "color" to the external world simply by the way in which you've defined it.

    In science, however, "color" is synonymous with the wavelength of light. Every object perceives (or at least chemically responds to) different wavelengths of light in different ways, whether it's a leaf absorbing a particular wavelength of light for photosynthesis or water absorbing microwave radiation to increase its rotational energy. This is nothing more than molecules absorbing, emitting and responding to different wavelengths of light. Whether said molecules respond to one wavelength or another depends on the nature of the molecules in question.

    So to say a photon at 450nm isn't a blue colored photon is of course true. But that doesn't mean that light doesn't have "color" (as defined by science noted above) because other molecules (and organisms) can perceive and respond to this light in a way that is unique to the "color" (or wavelength) of light. Thus, in nature, color scientifically speaking very much exists.

    This is just an argument in semantics really, and to support your point you're fundamentally defining color in the way in which humans perceive it, and arguing it doesn't exist outside human perception. So of course what you're saying is true, but only because you've defined it that way and not because you've stumbled on some great scientific paradox.
     
  16. [quote name='"dishin reg"']Yes photons and EM waves exist in physical reality, but these do not contain color or illumination in the external world, they only do after our eyes sense them and our brain processes the information.

    It is only after our brains paint these varying frequencies into color and illumination that we experience a colored and lit world.

    The world beyond our senses is colorless, it isn't even pitch black because black is a characteristic of color. Reality is simply colorless silent energy in different forms.

    Visible color is just as colored and illuminated as the radio-waves passing through your room at this very moment. It is made of the exact same stuff, it's simply traveling at a different frequency.

    If we could tweak how our brains process, we could see radiowaves as color instead of the current visible spectrum. In reality though neither radio-waves nor the VLS actually posses color.

    Visible color and light do not and cannot exist within physical reality because they are merely perceptions. But we are experiencing a colored and illuminated image, but if it cannot exist within our reality, where is it loca

    Where does consciousness exist? According to science it cannot be within reality, it must be beyond.[/quote]

    Nonsequitor
     
  17. Color is simply us making sense of the visible world.

    Your arguement is akin to saying a camera doesn't exist because color doesn't exist.

    Wavelength IS color. To say IRS colorless untilled we percieve it is pointless. And our concupiscence does in fact exist. Your using it to type this thread right now.
     

  18. Couldn't have said it better myself
     
  19. I think people are still misunderstanding what I'm trying to get across.

    Chiefton and samspade are starting to catch on though I believe.

    Yes wavelengths exist in the external world, but they posses zero color. It isn't until these EM waves are detected and processed by the human mind (or any other conscious being) that they are given color.

    My question is- If visible color cannot literally exist in physical reality (I'm talking literal colors such as blue, green ect.., not just EM waves since they are not actually colored), Where does our field of perception exist?

    Is what we perceive and experience within the brain within this dimension, and if so how?

    Is the brain actually a transmitter of some sort, transmitting all the information it receives into another plane/dimension/realm where our bare consciousness lies?

    Is the reason scientists cannot directly tap into and observe another being's consciousness simply because it is beyond the physical world, therefore beyond the scientific method?
     
  20. #20 grape tomato, Aug 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2012
    We can't observe consciousness as it is an ongoing process created through electrical signals through our neuron networks. Wavelengths do definitely exist, but color does not. Color is just how the networks process wavelength.

    We are lucky enough to have networks capable of recurrent thought (thinking about thinking, or understanding of thought), which is due to our capacity for knowledge about our surroundings.

    Think of the brain as an input/output architecture (which it is). It takes any kind of information (in our case, sight, sound, smell, taste, feeling, as well as others) as input. The input is sent to the first layer of neurons, which chooses which neurons to send the next signal to based on an energy threshold. The energy is modified, and sent to the next layer, where the process is repeated. Many refer to this as thought. This is repeated until an output layer is reached, which is when an action is performed. This network also communicates signals chemically (i.e. Cannabinoids, Serotonin, Epinephrine) which can alter thought process.

    Color is just part of this thought process affecting the visual inputs.

    [​IMG]
    I drew a VERY simplified model of an animal neuron network. The text on there was from the first version of the image, so just ignore it.
     

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