Simple question. If you believe in freedom, which is the idea you can do what ever you want as long as it doesn't conflict with others wants; then I ask, is the exploitation of workers by the "capitalist" machine a "crime" or violation of rights? For me I'm starting to see that Marx's ideal society is impossible, however something similar is achievable only through true anarchy. Do you think the government fights for workers rights? No. We do. The "government" serves us. Its a corporation. Making government not actually a thing. Meaning we already live in anarchy. Freedom must be Earned because there are people out there that want to take it from you -yuri
Exploitation isn't a violation of freedom because no one is forcing you to work for an exploiting company. However, it's still scummy of corporations to fuck over their workers and is morally bankrupt.
if your options are the frying pan or the oven, is that truely freedom? Our choices are dictated by others choices To find a job, we must follow the rules of the ruling elite. They create the world we llive in. We have no freedom -yuri
Make a job. If you let somebody have power over you, that is 10000% your fault. Even if the other option is death, you have a choice in every aspect of your life except for your genetics
Well to be honest I don't believe in free will so having this conversation with me won't go very far because I don't believe anyone truly has "freedom." My point was that hourly workers at mcdonalds have a choice to leave if they feel that they are being mistreated with no ramifications. Of course you can argue about whether or not that's a choice that is available but the option definitely exists.
do you mean get a job? Lets simplify this further. If a gun is to your head and you have two options. Is that freedom? -yuri
Well only if every company in the world is greedy exploiting pricks, which isn't the case. Obviously if you are someone without a high school or college degree it will be much harder to find jobs that don't exploit their workers. However there is always options such as going to school, getting an associates degree, or going to some kind of technical school where that person can become more attractive to jobs that don't "exploit" their workers. You can argue about how much choice we really have when it comes to a job. But at the end of the day we are still in control of how we approach our job and finding one, even if it doesn't seem that way. Of course there are gonna be people trapped in a vicious cycle where they depend on these cheap labor jobs and can't get to better careers because they are trapped making just enough to get by. Unfortunately that's just a reality we have to deal with. It's one of the reasons why there exists social programs like welfare and why many people don't pay federal income tax. They get paid shit incomes and can't afford to get by if they are taxed at the same rates as richer individuals.
Also plenty of people don't have jobs but have income other ways, welfare, family money, won the lottery whatever...so there's always that too Edit* I also know a chick that gets naked on a webcam and makes fuckin bank doin it...wish I was a hot chick so I could do the same
Finally something around here I can agree with. I have always stood against the capitalist system as it is unfair to the majority of us here in the US. I'm not a full blown socialist but I do think that Karl Marx was on to something better than Adam Smith (the Marx of capitalism) was. Companies that follow the capitalist model have always been trying to find ways to maximize profits while minimizing their pay-out whether that means low pay for employees or cutting quality to lower production costs. Neither of these things are good for consumers and workers yet they seem to do only good for the wealthy business executives that call the shots. Now, last I checked, CEO's and other high ranking business officials make up the vast minority of this country yet they seemingly have a disproportionate amount of social power. I don't see how it is okay to place an overwhelming majority of this country into the category of pawns who are subservient to their companies! Sure, you can get college degrees and obtain a respected position that allows for more personal freedom but you still have to answer to a higher power that was more than likely born into that power without earning it. And what about those too poor to go to college? Did their work ethic keep them trapped in menial employment or perhaps is it the lack of available opportunities that is trapping them in perpetual poverty? People in this country are forced to work multiple jobs just to stay enrolled in a second class college to have a chance of becoming something worth a damn but how in the hell are they supposed to keep up with their academics when they can hardly afford their ramen noodles! Meanwhile the sons and daughters of CEO's are going to ivy league schools without having to work for a single penny and they come out with a job that pays ridiculous amounts of money for minimal work. This, to me, is backwards! Why can't the rich pay more taxes and subsidize education for the poor? Why is healthcare not a basic human right in the "land of the free" while Russians are enjoying full healthcare despite being a far poorer nation than the US? Why can't we raise the minimum wage so that people don't have to work double overtime at a shitty job just to feed their kids? Why do companies have to care so much about how people live their lives outside of work? Why aren't young minority children in poor urban neighborhoods receiving the same quality of public education as their predominately white suburban counterparts? This is only the beginning of how I feel about capitalism and like I said, I'm not a full blown socialist but I would much rather live in a relatively functional socialist society than the richest capitalist society!!
No I mean MAKE a job. Start a business. If you don't have it in you to do that, that's all on you. You also have the freedom to be shot or to get yourself out of the situation. It's called decision making. Not every situiation has an outcome that you'll like or that's even "right".
Do you know how hard it is to start a buisnes in America? Its not just a matter of if you have it in you. The corperations litterally have a stranglehold on the market due to regulations and licensing that they lobied for. It hurts the small buisness to the point of bankruptcy, and the megacorps take the hit, and then take the buisness. Basically what I'm discussing here I'd the fact that you are born into a world where you start off as a loser, and unless the winners chose yo let you in, the most you can ever be is a slightly less poor loser. -yuri
Of coarse. I'm by no means arguing that our lives are shit, or that we are anything close to slaves of the past But I do feel like everyone who is willing to put in the effort has a right to their fair share of the world. Our system disagrees. No matter how hard you work, jobs are limited, because those with the most are only willing to pay so much. I believe it is a sin be make over a billion dollars a year for yourself when starving people are willing to work for crumbs. No one should be allowed to be rich while poor people are willing to work. That being said I am 100% against wellfare. I believe everyone should earn their life somehow, but its obvious our society even in America doesn't allow that. Even if you are the best of the best, and willing to do what it takes, that doesn't mean you'll make it. -yuri
You're for a better redistribution of wealth just not through governmental means? Is that fair to say? I think your statement at the end is just the sad truth of life. We can put in our best effort and things still won't work out because sometimes they are beyond our control. That's why I really like the concept of stoicism. Sometimes we can't control the world around us, but we can control how we react to it and whether or not we are gonna bounce back.
Well I don't plan on making millions per year, I'll be happy with at least 95 after taxes and everything. If you don't think it's attainable maybe you can work for me one day. I should add that while I believe people should be treated fairly, in terms of respect, listening to their ideas, not making them do stupid bs just cause you have the money to, I don't think everybody should be equal financially. There has to be a balance of leaders and followers, which is typically regulated by income, since money=power. I know for a fact that two hard workers (people I personally know) should not earn the same amount just because they are both hard workers. Every field of business is worth something different in the world, and that's 100% on consumers. Therefore, somebody working in oil should have more money than somebody working in say bee farming. Not every business opportunity is available when the time is right for you, but that doesn't make it less fair to anybody.
I'd like to clarify something. I only intended to discuss this issue. I myself don't hold a real belief one way or another. On one hand I see excess rules and regulations strangling the lower class while the rich breath easy. On the other hand I see the inevitable result of free market, which is consolidation of wealth and a pyramid shaped class structure where the bottom class basically become "voluntary" slaves. There must be some moral way to reconcile this. -yuri