I was wondering what everyone thinks of Saul/Paul. I have been reading the nt from the beginning and then I got to the book Romans, and there seemed to be some contradictions( ill get to some of those later). Then I thought about it and Saul/ Paul has never walked amongst Jesus and there seemed to be a lot of "I" this and "I' that coming from the author . Then someone outside this forum brought to my attention that he actually changed his story of Jesus visiting him 3x according to Luke in the book of acts. The first time the story was told.he says his witnesses hear the voice bot doesn't see the light. Acts 9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?†5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?†Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.†6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?†Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.†7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. Also Jesus never blinded anyone he always healed the blind and maimed Acts 22 6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?' And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.' 9 And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.' 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus. 12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,calling on the name of the Lord.' In the versus above the witnesses now seen the light but did not hear it. If the seen the light why were they not blinded? Then in acts 26 he doesn't even mention Jesus blinding him or having to travel to the nearby city Damascus for further instructions. 12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' 15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?' And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now [a] send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
I don't have much to add, except that you should pick up a copy of the book "The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels. It might just help you see Paul's writings (or the writings attributed to him, at least) in a new light.
jkoz07, you need something else to occupy your time and clear that bible crap out of your mind before it does irreparable damage. Try smoking better dope, downloading more porn, and wacking off at least ten times a day. If that doesn't work, get a girlfriend and fuck your selves silly for hours on end. Before long, if your lucky, Jeezuz and Gawd will just be crazy memories of a time when you were dazed and confused.
I'm just gonna add my first reaction to the title and then I'm gonna bug out and leave it alone. I definitely exist. Probably. I'm pretty sure. I mean, here's a post.
No thoughtware I did not get these ideas from some one else. Like I said I was reading the nt from the beginning and I started to notice contradictions and Romans seemed like the author was another " spirit" writing the book. Then I did some looking into it that is when someone brought the above to my attention...ok I didn't notice it in acts the first time I read it. But can you deny the versus above??? And I believe the book of genesis even prophesied of a ravening wolf coming from the tribe of Benjamin. Killing his prey by day and dividing the plunder by night... Paul was from the Benjamin tribe and he was intoduced into the bible being a murdering procicuting folowers of Christ.
Jkoz, the bible is full of contradictions. God sent Job to chop his son's head off to prove a point to the devil. He turned Sarah into a pillar of salt for having a neck spasm. And Ezekiel repeats himself at least 3 times with everything he said. There was psilocybes on the cow dung God instructed him to eat. And the wind cried Mary. Oh, that's Hendrix, not God.
Do you think this is the first time someone has had a wrong idea about scripture? You are acting like you know "truth" - you know nothing as you ought to know. Any person reading the Bible of their own interpretation will get it wrong. The Bible is Spirit - and LIFE - and can not be understood without the Spirit. Otherwise, if you try to figure it out yourself, you create some horribly wrong image of God. The Christian religion is an example of men reading the Bible and creating a TOTALLY wrong image of God. If you read the Bible - always do it to see and hear God. Ask HIM to teach you what it means. Then HE will paint his Picture for you - because only HE who has no image, can reveal how to see "no image". Now, I will tell you something about Paul - before you say something you wish you hadn't. Paul carried the message of the Kingdom - a message he could not have delivered had Christ not died. He gained understanding directly by the revelation of the Spirit of Christ. Paul represents all people seeking to enter the kingdom - as they realize by revelation of the Spirit of Christ that they are of the Kingdom of God. I'm going to tell you something else. God is serious business. Do not EVER listen to ANYONE tell you who God is or isn't EXCEPT God himself. If you are unable to understand what I am saying - just understand this: Seek God seriously - and ask him to give you knowledge and wisdom in PERFECT TRUTH. Ask him to teach you what LOVE really means - and how to love others as God himself does. Pray these prayers with an honest heart - and then give him a chance to answer by spending some time with him.
Are you serious thoughtware? I know I know nothing look at my signature. I'm simply asking everyone on this forum what they thought about this and if they could provide scriptural evidence that is supporting or argues my point.. For some reason this seems to be striking a nerve for you. It would be nice if you would provide scriptural evidence saying that he didn't tell the story of jesus visiting him differently 3 times, and "BLINDING HIM" 2 of the 3 time.since I am using the bible on those points it is the truth according to you. So please tell me how the bible isn't telling me the truth. Yes I know that everyone reading the bible will get thier own interpretation of it. That's gonna happen. please without telling me I know nothing can you give me your interpretation of the versus I provided above.
Heh, Socrates... what you know is that you know next to nothing. Knowing that you know next to nothing is knowing something. *nitpicks his favorite Greek celebrity* We could all cite the bible til we turn blue, and say whatever we want. That's the bible's chief weakness (manipulators no doubt consider it its chief strength). I don't see a problem with Jesus blinding Paul for a few days, especially for three, the same number he was dead. That is obviously not a coincidence, and is probably a metaphor for Paul's rebirth. Think about it - it's pretty much dark inside the womb, and then you are born into the light and suddenly you have the ability to see. Occam's razor probably applies to your question. I believe you're talking about three versions of the storie that all likely have different authors, from different decades following Jesus' death. The last book was completed about 100 years later if my memory serves. The authors remember the same story slightly differently.
Ok postal plowfish Jesus never hurt anyone before this incident. He wants us to understand our actions cause our pain in our life, not him. He never played " the end justifies the means".
It must be scary to go blind. But I doubt it hurts. It isn't painful to get blindfolded, it's just kinda scary. Think about what an unbeliever wants. They want proof. That experience, if it were done to me (as an atheist) would certainly give me a lot to think about. And three days is plenty of time to do the thinking. It's gonna seem cruel for the three days, but afterward? Something took your sight, and showed you what it was like to be blind, and then gave it back so that you could see with a passion you might have taken for granted before. You could call that cruel, but I can't help but also think that you could call it incredibly kind. Honestly, I doubt the story. But the symbolism is pretty loud, don't you think? The guy allegedly changed his mind because of a miracle. Born again.
If you blinded someone would it be a hurtful thing to do? Let me ask another question. If Jesus came and blinded you and 3 days later you gained your sight back from Jesus and were soooo thankful, wouldn't you tell the story correctly 3 times? Why contradict such a great story? Plus the way he does it is so there is no accountable witnesses like there was with the baptism of Christ and his john the Baptist.
The contradictions were not because of different books or authors. They are all from 1 book the book Acts . Yes there is differences from 1 book to another. But in the same book 3 times? Can anyone show me 1 book that contradicts 1 story within it 3 times ( other then Acts)?
First, I did not say you know nothing, but rather that you know nothing as you OUGHT to know. This means you are still trying to figure things out yourself. The spiritual meaning of things can only be taught by God directly. Are you asking why he was blinded? Paul was always blind. Paul was a very significant religious leader at the time - and pridefully thought he knew God better than anyone and understood all things. Yet he was full of "religion" and not Truth. His first interaction with Truth revealed that he didn't know anything as he OUGHT to know (sound familiar?). His "fleshly" blindness revealed the TRUE blindness of his Spirit. He was starting ALL over again. This is how WE should ALL begin our journey to seek truth - admitting what we have learned from men and by our own understanding is wrong. We should understand that we are blind - and need God to open up our understanding. Now, as to why Paul's men heard a voice, but did not hear the voice of Christ speaking with Paul makes perfect sense in accordance with ALL I have been saying to you. We do not know what Christ spoke to the men - or if it was in a language they understood. We only know they heard something. However, Paul is very clear in telling us that the words Christ spoke to him - no one but Paul heard. This is how the spirit of Christ works today - he speaks to all of us individually...to our specific needs. As to why the men were not blinded - its because Paul was not blinded by the physical light, but by the Spirit of Christ.
So thoughtware are you saying you interpret it as they will hear but not comprehend they will see but not perceive?
This is why it is important to trust God to teach you all things. I will be unable to explain the concept of "spiritual blindness" or "Truth" in a way that can be correct understood by your spirit. Only God can teach you these things. The Bible looks like a book - but it is Truth and holds God's Spirit. This means that this "book" is actually ALIVE. This is why anyone who spends regular time reading the Bible will know that the Bible is true. Eventually, the Bible will begin to "speak" directly to your life and about the very specific and personal issues you face. One who reads the Bible regularly will "perceive" the Spirit of God communicating with their own Spirit. For this to be possible - the Bible has to be true - or it could not hold the spirit of God. Only people who spend regular time with the Bible in hope of learning more about God know this. Many people carry a Bible around with them - but very, very few spend regular time with God and his word in hope of knowing him correctly. Paul was a religious zelot. He was so relgious that he "murdered" others whom he felt threatened his "religion". Paul actually murdered those who followed the teaching of Christ. In the Bible, God states that even those who "hate" others is the same as "murdering" them. Today, religious people tend to hate and judge those who differ from their own religious beliefs. In Paul's blindness we see TWO important things. First, that if you are "religious" you are a "murder" in God's eyes. This is why religion is so evil. It breeds a judging spirit in which you honor yourself, and look down on others. Paul was so blind he did not understand the wrong he did - even though he killed others. The second thing we learn is that we are BORN blind. Postal actually said this already. The ONLY way you can come to God is to admit to HIM you know nothing about him as you ought to know. You come to him knowing nothing - and allowing HIM to reveal himself to you as he will. Anyone who seeks will FIND. This is a great and awesome promise of God. But, because people think they can SEE - they will not find. To find God - you must first understand that you CAN NOT SEE him unless HE gives you sight. And he will.
Paul's story is interesting not just to biblical scholars, but to neuro- scientists as well. Some scientists claim that the account of this conversion, found in the book of Acts, contains enough evidence to diagnose Paul with temporal lobe epilepsy. The flash of light, the voices and the fall to the ground are the evidence of a seizure, according to these neuroscientists, with the blindness a result of the postictal state that follows a seizure [source: Brorson, Brewer]. While most doctors agree that it's impossible to diagnose epilepsy definitively in someone who lived so long ago, Paul would join some other religious figures reputed to have brain disorders, including Moses and St. Teresa of Avila [sources: BBC, Begley]. The link between epilepsy and the Lord doesn't end with that list, though. In one study, researchers examined how certain words affected those with epilepsy compared to those without. The words were divided into three groups: neutral words, like "table," erotic words, such as "sex," and religious words, such as "God." In those without epilepsy, erotic words produced the biggest change in body chemistry, but in people with epilepsy, religious words created the biggest emotional effect. Sexual words had a much lower response [source: BBC]. Like the story of Paul, this study seemed to suggest that the temporal lobe has something to do with religious feelings. These examples represent the intersection of science and religion, a field currently known as neurotheology. The goal of neurotheology is to determine what's happening in the brain during a religious experience. Obviously, the field can be a bit controversial; those with deeply spiritual beliefs about the connection between a person and his or her maker aren't thrilled about reducing religion to something happening in the brain. But the work of the scientists does seem to show that there's some connection with our gray matters and our pray matters. So, is nirvana all in our noggin? Are we simply responding to brain firings when we drag ourselves out of bed on Sunday morning? Read on to find out what God might be doing to your brain. TLC Family "Is the brain hardwired for religion?" ----------------------------------------- St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy. D Landsborough Copyright and License information ► This article has been cited by other articles in PMC. Abstract Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul's ecstatic visions. Paul's physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy. --------------------------------------------------------------- Religion and Art: Cultural Ramifications of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy Besides the standard symptoms of seizures and the alterations of visual perception, temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE) is distinguished among the different forms of epilepsy by its association with some of the most profound experiences in human history. Many important historical figures in our past suffered from neurological disorders that went undiagnosed or misdiagnosed because their disorders were not even named, much less understood, at the time. Since the symptoms of temporal lobe epilepsy were defined many historians and neuroscientists have theorized about various historical figures and what role TLE may have played in shaping their lives and our culture. Much of the speculation about how this disorder affected these important figures in human history is based on how the symptoms of epilepsy affected their behavior. Many individuals with temporal epilepsy report experiences directly preceding their epelaptic fits, known as "auras." These auras vary from "crude warnings," which tell the individual that they are about to have a seizure, to "elaborate mental states," which include more complex symptoms and can change the perceptions of that individual. Auras vary widely from individual to individual, but they often contain common elements including (Taylor, 1987): hypergraphia (excessive, compulsive writing or drawing) deja/jamais vu (the sensations of seeing something new and feeling like you have seen it before, or seeing something familiar and feeling like it is the first time respectively) deja/jamais entendu (same as the above, but hearing rather than seeing) fear, euphoria, or other intense emotions a sensation of sudden insight or revelation While all these symptoms are part of life, and exist in the normal population to varying degrees (Persinger, 1987), their combined presence in temporal lobe epilepsy could help us better understand the lives of several influential figures in history, as well as our selves and our society. Religion One of the branches of neuroscience that has a lot of controversy associated with is neurotheology, or the neuroscience of religion and religious experiences. Many people feel that explaining such phenomena reduces their value or that it is disrespectful, but research into the field is not attempting to demean religion. Rather, the aim is to help us better understand the brain processes that makes up these remarkable experiences and is common to all of us. Temporal lobe epilepsy is strongly associated with radical spiritual events including visions of figures, vivid memories, auditory hallucinations, intense feelings of religious conviction, and in many cases conversion or return to specific faiths. In fact, many scientists and historians have speculated that St. Paul of Christianity might have suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy. St. Paul In the book of the Acts in the bible, there are two separate descriptions of Paul's conversion: one is a third person narrativem, and one is a speech he gave when he was arrested in Jerusalem. Both are brief, they do not present a lot of evidence with which to diagnose him. However, the elements they do contain do support a TLE interpretation. Both passages describe Paul falling to the ground and experiencing a blinding light. Then he hears a voice claiming to be "Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting" (Acts of the Apostles 22:6-21 ). Afterwards he was unable to see, and he did not eat or drink for three days on his way to Damascus. Following this experience Paul became a devout follower and missionary of Christianity, exhibiting religious fervor and driving purpose. Auditory hallucinations of divine voices, visions of divine figures, and physical collapse are all common elements of TLE, and they are especially common in documented cases of sudden religious conversion in people with temporal lobe epilepsy. In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul described another experience, in which he was "caught up to paradise and heard sacred secrets which no human lips can repeat." He also claimed that he was "given a thorn in the flesh, an angel of Satan to rack me" to prevent him from becoming too prideful about his "wealth of visions." This story gives two important indications that Paul might have suffered from TLE: there is confirmation that he had recurring, if not frequent visions, and he had an awareness or perception of some illness in himself. Obviously such speculation on important historical figures is fraught with implications. There is a danger of demeaning individual experience without producing anything of value in the process. That being said, the human experience is a shared experience, and the goal of neuroscience is to help us better understand each other and ourselves. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy and Visual Phenomenon: Religion and Art -------------------------------------------------------------------- all that shit is quoted from the links provided....