Thats what I have been saying all along. Either one works along as you start with one and keep it the same.(until flowering 12/12)
ok I got the picture now... Thanks to all who shared they're knowledge! And sorry if I started a bit of a fuss by the way...
Exactly, not all your strains had a 25% increase so your theory doesn't even hold up. Your telling me that 24/0 gives you a 25% increase, yet not all of your plants had that increase? So you pretty much proved your theory false on your own. The fact is your putting more stress on the plant by giving it constant light, so i don't see how you can be worried about 18/6 stressing the plant out at all. You keep going on believeing in yourself, i'll stick to my 18/6. irieluv- it's not that hard for someone to make a name on a message board and lie, plenty of people do it. I don't get how you can't grasp that concept, but whatever.
bro.. I guess that on overgrow.. we all had our grows posted.. but after those damn canadians popo took it out I guess the other boards pics aren't a regular thing.. you ain't gotta lie to kick it.. I don't see why you persist in argueing.. bro to be honest with you.. people who have alot of experience in the subject are telling you that there is quite a increase in growth for 6 more hours of light that 24 hours provides.. and yes it's when we're in our own situations that this happens .. and yes some of us are running 3-4 thousand watts hell.. science has probly grown more than that at once.. so yes.. with the damn sun on in your room it would be a given that those extra 6 hours of veg time for your huge crop that is nearing flower.. and all those nutrients to drink and c02 to suck up.. BRO THEY GROW MORE WITH MORE LIGHT.. we're telling you facts.. people ask about facts.. they need to know specifics.. we tell them.. and yes.. they are our strains and our circumcstances.. but I thought we were all sorda searching for the same environment right? So in that environment that's what happens you get more.. in your's 18/6 works.. Do it.. Mine Grow faster.... Ha!
And Gasaraki, it's not fuss, we're just discussing the details In Theory most of your crops should be in flower by now anyhow.. ehehhe
Before reading this thread i did as follows: 2 weeks under 24/0, then switched to 12/12: RESULTS SO FAR: 2 out of 4 skunk turned out male 1 out of 4 skunk turned out hermie 1 out of 4 skunk hasnt showed yet 6 sativas are growing and have some fanleaves constantly removed. Dont know if the sex of the skunks had to do with light stress or just luck; got one hermie though...
You do what you want jackass. Irieluve is right, My grow room is 20x30 ebb and flo system, I run 20 1000w lights in my room. 2 rows of 10 lights every 3x3. SO you and your little 6x6 grow room with your little home depot lights can kiss my ass. I do this for a living its not just a hobby. The reason I said that not all of my plants have that increase is because not all strain react the same in the same habitat you jackass. And for your little theory of 18/6 is better, they both work stupid but some strains get better results with more light. 24/0 will not cause your plants to go into heat stress. The reason irieluv says the same is because we have experience. How the hell do we know if your not full of shit(Irieluv and I know, but not everybody has experience in this field). Your giving people wrong information that can compromise thier plants. Common fucking sense duh. When you start growing for a living then you can talk. Until then shut the fuck up. I recently found proof from a book. Go and buy the cannabis grow bible and look on page 107 you know what you go ahead and just read the whole damn thing cause you need help.
Okay guys the insults stop here, no reason for them, if you wan't to act like intelligent growers and debate do so but no one is full of shit. My take on the situation..I have tried 24/0 and 18/6 and I have always had better results with the 18/6. The yields were relatively similar, but the 24/0 tended to grow slower and I ended up with a hermie, but that is MY results, does not mean it is the only results. No more insults, smoke the weed you grow and relax ya damn stoners.
As I said in my first post science, 18/6 or 24/0 is both acceptable. Check out these threads. Some advanced growers voted here and the consensus is that 18/6 is the best. I didn't see his post on any of my links I provided but, I am pretty sure that Unoit also uses 18/6 and he has been growing soil and hydro for about 25 years. I think maybe you shouldn't be so dogmatic because there is more than one way of doing things; not just your way. http://forum.grasscity.com/showthread.php?t=85896&highlight=24/0+18/6 http://forum.grasscity.com/showthread.php?t=90248&highlight=24/0+18/6
WHEN THE LIGHTS GO OUT By Keith Roberto and Brandon Mathews Everyone knows that plants need light for photosynthesis. What they don’t know is that plants need darkness, too! But why? Are they trying to get a restful sleep for a busy day of photosynthesis? Not many people try to grow plants in continuous light. It seems we all have a hunch that the dark cycle is an important part of a plant’s life, but what are they really doing? This article will shed some light on the mysterious and often misunderstood dark cycle. All plants have complex energy generating systems that function both in sunlight and in the dark. However, these reactions are coupled and rely on the products and intermediates produced by each biochemical process, day or night. In short, plants use light energy, water and CO2 during photosynthesis to generate sugar and oxygen that is later metabolized by the dark reactions to generate cellular CO2 and energy. Carbon dioxide generated in the dark cycle is used as the carbon source for maintenance molecules and some is even expelled by the plant. There are many common misconceptions regarding the role of CO2 in the dark, but it will soon become clear what plants do without their beloved sunlight. We must keep in mind that plants are pre-historic and have developed complex metabolic systems to adapt to an ever changing environment. Plants used to enjoy an atmosphere of highly concentrated carbon dioxide before they did us a favor and converted it to oxygen. As the globe varies greatly in temperature, humidity, and light conditions, plants have diversified to cope with their geographic neighborhood. Forced to adapt to modern times, plants now have specialized systems to utilize the relatively low concentration of atmospheric CO2, around 0.036% or 360ppm. To best provide for any plant species, an artificial environment should closely resemble their natural conditions. Once these conditions are understood, further steps can be taken to enhance plants’ metabolic activity. When the sun goes down, a greenhouse environment undergoes a few fundamental changes such as a shift in light wavelength and a decrease in temperature. As the sun sets, the wavelength of light generated by the sun shifts from blue to red. During the day, photosynthesis is most efficiently propelled by blue light (450nm) because it is a shorter wavelength and thus carries more photon energy. At sunset, red light (650nm) initiates a sequence of chemical responses that trigger essential metabolic processes to begin. Similar to humans, plants spend the day gathering energy (money) and generating (buying) food. In the evening they metabolize this food to provide their cells with the energy they need to form new cells, repair damaged cells, produce important enzymes and proteins, and prepare themselves for sunrise and photosynthesis. Essentially, they carry out cyclic processes known as a circadian rhythm, from Latin meaning “approximately a day.” All cellular events require metabolic energy, primarily in the form of ATP or NADH. These high energy molecules are manufactured by many biochemical processes, as plants have evolved to scavenge energy at all periods of the day. Photosynthesis is the process by which a plant uses light energy to break apart water, generating O2, protons and electrons. Oxygen is the magical energy transporter in all forms of aerobic respiration, and is used to transfer electrons in the production of the energy rich molecules ATP and NADH. Coupled to the products of photosynthesis, the Calvin Cycle fixates CO2 to generate 3-Carbon sugars during the light cycle. These sugars are later converted into 6-Carbon sugars like glucose and fructose, the primary substrates used to make cellular carbon and the bulk of ATP and NADH during aerobic respiration of the dark cycle. As fragile as plants appear to be, they are dedicated survivors and thrive in a wide range of light and temperature conditions. Temperature is as important a variable as light because it directly affects humidity, dissolved gas concentrations, water stress, and influences the ratio of water loss to carbon fixation. Changes in the leaf are most prevalent because they are the primary site of light absorption, sugar formation, and gas exchange. During the night, stomates in the leaf are nearly closed as the need for gas exchange is small and to prevent unnecessary water loss. During the day when photosynthesis is in full swing, the demand for CO2 uptake is great and stomata are wide open. Unfortunately, high temperatures increase water loss through the same stomatal openings that are trying to uptake CO2. Therefore, photosynthesis is both temperature and light dependent as an increase in temperature reduces the amount of carbon that is fixed, or carboxylated, into sugar by the Calvin Cycle. Photosynthesis reaches a maximum rate at a temperature of 30C (85ºF) and remains efficient ± 5C (75-95ºF). The leaf is a very complex organ. Stomates are surface pores on the underside of the leaf that are regulated by guard cells that vary the size of the pore in response to environmental cues. Water and CO2 cannot be simultaneously transported through the narrow stomata. Fortunately, during the day when water is readily available, many stomata are dedicated to CO2 uptake rather than water transpiration. This factor is known as the Transpiration Ratio. In a typical C-3 plant, approximately 500 molecules of water are lost for each single molecule of CO2 fixated by a leaf. The most abundant protein in the leaf, around 40%, is the one responsible for CO2 fixation, known as ribulose bisphosphate carboxylase/ oxygenase, commonly called rubisco and abbreviated RuBP. As the chemical name suggests, this protein is capable of accepting both CO2 and O2. This is a competitive reaction, but fortunately, RuBP has a much higher affinity for carbon dioxide than oxygen. Throughout a typical day, carboxylation occurs three times more than oxygenation of RuBP. There are a few barriers to CO2 uptake in a leaf. The first is boundary layer resistance where a thin, unstirred layer of air on the under surface of the leaf reduces CO2 diffusion. This resistance decreases with leaf size and wind speed. The second is intercellular air space resistance which hinders the diffusion of CO2 between layers in the leaf. The third, and major contributing factor, is stomatal resistance, which is a direct regulation by the stomata to gas exchange. Temperature has a direct affect on the transpiration ratio. Not only does heat induce water loss through stomata, an increase in temperature also reduces the concentration of dissolved CO2 in air, thus favoring oxygenation of RuBP rather than carboxylation. This negative effect is known as photorespiration, the use of oxygen instead of carbon dioxide. Be careful not to confuse this term with aerobic respiration which is the process of glycolysis, the breakdown of sugar to generate metabolic energy which will be discussed later. Shade plants have more chlorophyll per unit area and also have very low photorespiratory rates. Sun plants have more rubisco per unit area and can handle a higher photosynthetic load. It is always a good idea to supplement a greenhouse with CO2 during the light cycle when stomata are open and gas exchange is readily occurring. Simply doubling the ambient concentration to 700ppm will increase the photosynthetic rate by 30-60%. At optimum light and temperature conditions with supplemental CO2, photosynthesis is only limited by the ability of the Calvin Cycle to regenerate the first sugar acceptor molecule, ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate. On the other hand, in low CO2 concentrations more carbon dioxide is given off during aerobic respiration at night than diffuses into the leaf during the day. This ratio is known as the CO2 compensation point. Why would the rubisco protein have evolved to use both CO2 and O2? Plants are highly adaptable and need to be able to thrive in tropical conditions of great light intensity and high nighttime temperatures that favor water loss and low ambient CO2 concentration. Even a typical environment can have extreme conditions out of the average range. In addition to the Calvin Cycle to fixate carbon dioxide, plants have a backup mechanism that recovers lost potential when oxygen associates within the active site of RuBP. The Photorespiratory Carbon Oxidation cycle (PCO) is a minor process that converts oxygenated RuBP into a small amount of cellular CO2 by rearrangement of the amino acids glycine and serine. In fact, there are a few mechanisms by which plants concentrate intracellular CO2. The previous information is primarily regarding a typical tomato plant or flower, the C-3 class of plants in which photosynthesis produces a 3-Carbon sugar. Other classes of carbon fixation include C-4 and CAM processes of desert and grasslike plants that live in the hottest and driest conditions. The stomata of these plants are closed during the day and open at night to make the most efficient use of water. Because there is little to no photosynthesis occurring in the dark, the uptake of CO2 is low, and these C-4 and CAM mechanisms concentrate carbon dioxide to be used by the Calvin Cycle. During the dark cycle, plants undergo aerobic respiration. Respiration is divided into three parts: Glycolysis, the Kreb or Citric Acid cycle (TCA), and the Electron Transport Chain. Glycolysis is the breakdown of sugars to shuttle smaller sugar molecules and intermediates to the Kreb Cycle. The Kreb Cycle then generates cellular CO2 and energy rich molecules like ATP, NADH and FADH. These energy carriers are then incorporated into the electron transport chain, coupled to the protons and electrons produced during photosynthesis to establish a proton gradient across the chloroplast thylakoid membrane, similar to a battery. The Kreb Cycle generates on average 34 molecules of ATP per 6-Carbon sugar. This represents a net ATP gain as many more molecules are produced than consumed in all other metabolic processes. Red light plays an important role in the regulation of the dark cycle. Red light is the color of the rising and setting sun. Plants temporally govern most biochemical processes by a circadian rhythm, a type of internal biological clock. In a natural environment this rhythm is set to a 24 hour cycle, although a plant can be trained to operate on however many hours a light and dark cycle add up to. Interestingly enough, it is rhythmic because even in constant darkness the biological functions persist in a cyclic fashion, although if left in complete darkness over time the rhythm does fade away. Such processes include leaf movement, flowering and ripening response, and the regulation of enzymes and hormones. The main protein responsible for this response is known as phytochrome. Phytochrome, abbreviated Pr , is converted to its active form, Pfr , upon irradiance by red light (650nm). Conversely, it can also be reconverted and deactivated by irradiance of far-red light (720nm). The activity of phytochrome is not solely dependant on its active form, but rather on the ratio of Pfr to the total phytochrome concentration. In this way, plants can sense the movement of the sun and the length of day. In addition to absorbing in the red light region, phytochrome also shows a slight response in the blue-light region (450nm). In combination with other blue light photoreceptors, this response is responsible for solar tracking of leaves as the sun moves through the sky. The flowering response has been determined to be a result of the length of darkness a plant receives. Inversely, a plant that flowers with short nights are termed Long Day Plants (LDP). A typical vegetable plant that matures in early Fall, when nights become longer, are termed Short Day Plants (SDP). Because plants are adapted to absorbing whatever photons they can, whenever they can, as in a shady forest, interrupting the dark cycle with light can dramatically alter its circadian rhythm. SDP are more sensitive to this response than LDP. Just a five minute irradiance can have an affect, whereas a LDP would need about one hour of light interruption to take affect. Regulation of a plant’s energy metabolizing systems function on many levels. A biochemical pathway can only proceed as fast as the rate limiting enzyme or substrate. The primary source of regulation is genetic. Chloroplasts and mitochondria have their own genetic code that produce the enzymes needed for their respective process. The only way to up-regulate genetic expression is either through genetic engineering or producing more of these genes by making sure the plant has all its required nutrients to produce more new cells. Another mode of regulation is through the limiting pathway intermediate, as mentioned regarding CO2 supplementation where the limiting factor becomes the regeneration of ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate. Unfortunately, the regeneration of this substrate is also regulated by the electron transport chain. Sometimes a limiting reactant can be artificially added to increase metabolic activity, as in the addition of amino acids, hormones and cofactors like trace vitamins and minerals. Ultimately, the major mode of regulation is environmental. Changes in water properties, nutrient availability, temperature, light duration and strength, humidity, and dissolved gas concentrations are big obstacles that need to be orchestrated to achieve maximal metabolic activity. As one can see, plants are definitely not getting a restful sleep at night. To keep up with our demand for their products and beauty they need to work around the clock. Plants have concrete biochemical processes and care should be taken to provide the proper environment. One cannot expect a plant to flourish as if by magic. After all, we all have our own personal needs and your plants do too! Bibliography Berry, J.A., Downton, J.S. 1982. Environmental regulation of photosynthesis. Photosynthesis, Development, Carbon Metabolism and Plant Productivity. Vol 2: 263-343.Academic Press, New York. Ehleringer, J.R., Sage, R.F., Flanagan, L.B., Pearcy, R.W. 1991. Climate change and the evolution of C-4 photosynthesis. Trends in Ecological Evolution. Vol 6: 95-99. Taiz, L., Zeiger, E. 1998. Plant Physiology. 2nd Ed. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. Vince-Prue, D. 1986. The duration of light and photoperiodic responses. Photomorphogenesis in Plants. Martinus Nijhoff, Dordrecht, Netherlands. Wiskich, J.T., Dry, I.B. 1985. The tricarboxylic acid cycle in plant mitochondria: Its operation and regulation. Higher Plant Cell Respiration. Vol 18: 281-313. Springer, Berlin. Zeiger, E., Farquhar, G., and Cowan, I. 1987. Stomatal Function. Stanford University Press,Stanford, CA.
Excellent article Up4. Reminds me of the college biology class I took a couple of years ago. Thanks for the info even though I am sure some one here will refute it.
This is just me wondering, but with the massive amount of selective breeding and a lot of growers using 24/0, would it be possible for the common weed plant to have adapted by now to grow just as well in 24/0? I mean I imagine that (assuming a seedbank uses 24/0) the grower would always pick the best looking plants under whatever conditions he's growing in, so the ones that do well under 24/0 would get chosen to breed; repeat for many many generations and you've got a plant that does well in 24/0. I have no idea if that's true or possible, but I just thought it. Speaking from experience, most growers I've talked to (IRL) have said to use 24/0. My own personal experience is that it doesn't make a difference, or any difference is negligable.
Sure. Come on man, everyone knows that the Citric Acid Cycle/Krebs Cycle is something I just made up NADH+ <-- those are just the initials of my pets
LoL Yeah. High school biology 101 folks. P.S. I like your idea Joint, could very well be within the realm of possibilities.
The "common" weed plant would not adapt this way, but what you describe is definitely possible for selecting, isolating, and maximizing certain traits within a strain or particular gene pool. Just as the dairy cows that produce the most milk are selected for breeding, generation after generation until you have all mega-producing cows, a breeder with enough time and diligence could isolate a trait in MJ. If that trait were growing best in 24/0 I would imagine that could be done. To my experience there is not a consensus among big growers to run 24/0. Running 24/0 might have advantages (it certainly does in some people's minds) but it is a hard fact that it costs 1/3 more in electricity per day than 18/6. Is it worth that premium, whether in higher yield or quicker maturity? If the definitive answer is yes then all growers would be doing 24/0 and the trait in the plant to thrive under that light cycle would be strengthened through selective breeding. Since there is not a consensus (as far as I can tell), then that trait is being perpetuated but is not being selected specifically.
There is a consensus on Grass City and the consensus is for 18/6. Boy we sure have beat this topic to death.