Looking to start some organic soil here soon, after reading up on jamaican bat guano, i learned about the other types out there. Saw this in a local hydro store - they said its the best thing next to sliced bread but wondering what you all thought about it as well. From Site: "This organic fertilizing kit includes 2.2 pound of the great all-purpose Peruvian Seabird Guano, 1 pound of high-nitrogen Mexican Bat Guano, 2.2 pounds of high-phosphorus, low-nitrogen Jamaican Bat Guano, and 2.2 pounds of high-phosphorus Indonesian Bat Guano." Thank you, Hornchen
Guano definitely has its place, but IMO there are better and cheaper organic amendments. I use a little (little!) bit of high P guano in my soil mix for flowering, and guano is very good for additional P, but there are way better sources of other nutrients. I also try to look for plant-based amendments over animal-based ones so that I get all of the beneficial plant compounds in addition to the basic nutrients. Go ahead and buy a bag of the high P guano (Jamaican or Indonesian, I go with Indo bc it's cheaper) if you want, but I wouldn't buy the whole kit. I would save that money and buy some alfalfa meal (great N source and has growth stimulating compounds), kelp meal (ditto on the growth stimulating hormones, plus K and much more), and EWC. Check out the stickies for more info on which organic amendments are best. You will find that almost all of us use alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and high quality EWC or compost. Spend your money sourcing high quality compost or EWC, alfalfa meal (super cheap), and kelp meal. These are the key ingredients in an organic grow, not bat poo! Plus these will give you way more bang for your buck and do way more for your plant than guano. Also, step away from the hydro store! Try to find a farm/feed store in your area, that will be the best and cheapest place to buy your organic amendments. HTH
I always end up learning so much! I have heard of the Kelp and Alfalfa meal but I have not done much research on them. I was going to use the following recipe that calls for bat guano, and I saw that each 'version' had 12-1-1, 1-12-1 and 1-1-12 (approx ) so I thought, why not mix them for a 14-14-14 blend. I was going to use the following recipe and let it cook outside for a month or so, germinate in sunshine mix and then transplant. 1 large bags of a high-quality organic potting soil with coco fiber and mycorrhizae 3.125 to 6.25 lbs of organic worm castings .625 lbs or 5/8 lbs or 10 ounces steamed bone meal .625 lbs or 5/8 lbs or 10 ounces bloom bat guano .625 lbs or 5/8 lbs or 10 ounces blood meal 3/8 lbs or 6 ounces rock phosphate 3/32 cup or 1.5 tablespoons Epsom Salts 1/16 cup or 1 tablespoon sweet lime (dolomite) 1/16 cup or 1 tablespoon azomite (trace elements) 3/4 teaspoon powdered humic acid
I've heard from the experts on this site that the main knock on bat guanos is that they can take a long, long time (sometimes years) to break down in the soil. If you plan on reusing your soil for awhile (which I would suggest) then it might be worth it. But if your doing a quick/one cycle grow, then you're best off taking the advice from the other poster. Kelp meal, alfalfa meal, high-quality worm castings, and neem cake meal. Even if you plan on re-using your soil, therefore adding guanos,, use the kelp, alfalfa, worm castings. And neem cake meal. (might have to order the neem cake online). Also....if anyone named Jerry, Chunk, possum, microbeman, Borophyl, or wet dog give you advice.......listen to what they say, and you will benefit greatly. Best advice you will receive anywhere. Good luck!
Hagbone is right about guanos taking a long time to break down. Like I said, I consider guano most valuable as a good source of P, but there are far better and cheaper sources of other nutrients. Hag is also right about the organic gurus here in the city. The wealth of knowledge available about organic gardening blows away any other site (conventional and canna-related) on the net. Love the EWC, that puts you ahead of the curve right there. May I suggest a few changes to your soil mix? -I would use alfalfa meal instead of blood meal. Alfalfa is a great source of N, also calcium and many other minerals. Alfalfa also contains a host of beneficial plant compounds like triacontanol, which stimulates growth and branching. Basically alfalfa does way more for your plants than blood meal could ever in its wildest dreams hope to do. Plus, alfalfa meal is super cheap. Another reason to avoid blood and bone meal is that they are slaughterhouse by-products and can transmit mad cow disease . -add some kelp meal!! Kelp meal is a must-have amendment in every organic garden. Kelp is a good source of K, but its true value lies in all the micronutrients (60+ minerals! 21 amino acids!) and beneficial, growth-stimulating plant compounds that it contains. I, and most other organic growers in the city, wouldn't be caught without it. -increase the azomite. 1 Tbs. isn't going to do much of anything for you. You need about 1-2 cups of azomite/rock dust per cubic foot of soil. -increase the humic acid. Once again, 3/4 of a tsp isn't going to do much at all. -I'm not a huge fan of lime, but when I do use it I use limestone (agricultural lime), not "sweet" lime. -you might want to check out crab meal (or other crustacean meal, even powdered oyster shells) for a good source of calcium and other minerals. Plus the chitins in crab meal actually kill bad bugs in your soil! -neem meal is a great source of N but most importantly including neem meal in your soil will keep the bad bugs in check! neemresource.com is the cheapest place to buy it Just a note. This looks like subcool's "super soil" mix. I will tell you this. When I first started researching a water-only mix I thought that subcool's super soil sounded great and way totally the way to go. Luckily I did a bit more research. What I found was that there are far better (more beneficial to your plants) and cheaper organic amendments to be had and far better soil mixes to emulate. What I quickly discovered was that, in general, plant sources do more for your plants than animal sources. Experience has shown me that this is true, my plants respond far better to alfalfa meal than they ever did to manure or blood meal. With a little more research here on GC I found organic gardeners and organic soil mixes that make "super soil" look amateur, at best. Another good rule that I go by is to use 2-3 cups of total amendments per cubic foot (roughly 7 gallons) of soil. So I would mix up my kelp meal +alfalfa meal +crab meal + neem meal, etc. in equal proportions, then add 2-3 cups of that mix per cubic foot of soil. Then add 1-2 cups of rock dust/azomite per cubic foot of soil. These ratios are based on the recommendation of LD (an organic guru in the truest sense of the word). Check out some of the organic stickies for more info. Also, you don't need to buy bagged potting soil. Buy some peat moss, aeration amendment (pumice, rice hulls, perlite, etc.) and make a blend of about 30% peat moss, 30% aeration amendment, and 30% EWC/compost. Then add 2-3 cups of your amendment mix per cubic foot of soil and 1-2 cups of rock dust/azomite and you let it cook and you will be good to go. I just want to stress that I know how appealing that "super soil" looks at first, but trust me (or do research and confirm it!) when I say that you can build a far superior soil and actually spend less $ (although the main reason to avoid it is just because you can build a much better soil ). Sorry for such a long post, but you seem like you really are interested in an organic soil mix so I wanted to point you in the right direction. Check out the organic stickies for more info. HTH, feel free to ask any questions you have. edit: Here's a great thread you should definitely check out. Listen to what LD says, he is the realest deal out there. http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/336320-organic-soil-mix-mine.html
In The Garden, thank you very very much for all the info. Please - not a long post at all, if nothing else it has given me another 25 questions to research. You are 100% correct, the soil recipe I posted was a reduced volume measurements, but the same ingredients as Subcool's mix. I am not one to just read it and say 'hey this is it' but your correct, I thought this was a good start. I agree about the animal byproducts, I did not think of the mad cow but I figured if there was a way I could not promote those types of processes ( financially at least ) that would be best. Alfalfa and Kelp meal sound like they are going to be added into the mix here very soon - and I like the idea you have about mixing those meals together and 'then' spreading them into the soil. I will research the post you recommended as well as do a bit more research on the soil itself. I was going to go with FFOF and then just build it up, but the more I read the more it sounds like I should just make everything on my own from scratch. Back to the drawing board! Thanks again for all the amazing information, I know how I am spending the rest of my saturday night! Semper Fi Hornchen
Yup, trust these guys, man they are the real deal. 4 months ago, I started researching organics here, and took these same guys advice, and now I'm just a few weeks away from harvesting the biggest, best looking, best smelling, and heaviest buds I've ever grown. Here's a pic of one bud to give you an idea. White widow from seed, vegged for just about 8 weeks, this pic is @ week 5 of flowering. Organics FTW!
yeah - i am getting pretty pumped. I think I am going to switch up the recipe a little, what do you all think of this? Instead of the FFOF I think I am going to get some promix vegetable instead - heard that its a bit better on the budget and with the amendments, FFOF might be too much. 5 lbs organic worm castings 1 lbs alfalfa meal ( wow this is expensive ) 1 lbs kelp meal 1 1/2 cup azomite per cubic foot 1 lbs peruvian sea bird guano 1/2 lbs rock phosphate 2 tablespoon epsom salts 1/8 cup dolomite ( debating on uping to 1/2 cup ) or agricultural limestone 1/2 cup powdered humic acid thanks again everyone! Semper Fi Hornchen
Looking good my friend . Definitely go for the promix over the ffof. Much cheaper and a better product. The only thing that I might add is a little extra aeration amendment (rice hulls, pumice, perlite, etc.), it never hurts to add some more drainage and make sure the roots get plenty of oxygen. Are the ratios you posted based on a 3.8 cubic foot bale of promix? If so, you should be good to go. I'm surprised that your alfalfa meal was expensive, alfalfa meal is one of the very cheapest organic amendments. Where did you buy it from? Maybe a hydro store or online? If you have a farm/feed store in your area, that is the cheapest place to buy organic amendments. I get a 25 lb bag of alfalfa meal for $10. If you don't have a farm/feed store, you can often find a big bag of alfalfa pellets at a pet store (alfalfa pellets=alfalfa meal=rabbit food). Not as cheap as the farmer's supply store, but still cheaper than buying from a hydro store or ordering online. I'm so glad you've got a good mix figured out! That mix will serve you well and you will be growing some dank . Feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want to run anything by me, I'm more than happy to help (it's always nice to help somebody who has half a brain and is willing to do some research and do things the right way) (not saying that you only have half a brain ). Glad to have been of service, best of luck on your grow !
So I just got back from Home Depot and Lowes, neither one of them had ANYTHING except miracle grow this and that. Oh well, the hunt continues. Good thing, I have not yet purchased anything - I am terrible at making decisions so I figure if I can 'prove' the soil then I will go out and purchase everything in one foul swoop. I am holding out for the promix, just a matter of finding it local now. I will grab the 3.8 cubic foot mix bag if you think those proportions would work best. I will also check out some feed stores local - I didn't realize the alfalfa meal was the same as the rabbit food - I saw some 'organic plant alfalfa meal' that was $35 for a 10 lb bag. Scratch that. I will def be in touch, you have been more help than I can ever express. Now to finish the PC case, get the soil put together and mixed - let it cook then sprout the beans and then the fun begins after transplant! Is it sad to say I'm really excited!? lol Thanks again, Semper Fi Hornchen
[quote name='"hagbone"'] Also....if anyone named Jerry, Chunk, possum, microbeman, Borophyl, or wet dog give you advice.......listen to what they say, and you will benefit greatly. Best advice you will receive anywhere. Good luck![/quote] Not sure how that damn Borophyl made that list... Lol, thanks Hag, I'm flattered. Boro
Hey hornchen . Did they not have promix at HD or Lowes? It usually comes in a square bale. If you just can't find it, you can mix up 50% peat moss (you can definitely find this), 25% aeration amendment (pumice, rice hulls, perlite), 25% compost/EWC (rough estimates). This will give you a mix that is cheaper and just as good as, if not better than, promix. Promix is basically just peat moss with an aeration amendment and a wetting agent. Definitely check out the feed store, that is the #1 spot for organic amendments, pro-mix, peat moss, etc. They will def have cheap alfalfa meal too, $35 for a 10 lb bag ?!? It's awesome that you are excited, and that you are doing your research and doing things the right way. I'm excited for you! I'm predicting: an excellent soil mix, a successful grow, and lots of beautiful buds . Keep me posted! Also, if you are interested in doing any more reading on organic gardening, here are some excellent threads: http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/650139-organic-higher-learning.html http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-m...door-gardening-without-bottled-nutrients.html http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/688025-suggested-organic-references-products.html http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/867186-lets-get-cheap.html http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/951816-what-soil-recipes-do-you-guys-use.html http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/334332-organic-soil-amendment.html
"Not sure how that damn Borophyl made that list... Lol, thanks Hag, I'm flattered."-Boro Hey man, you've been nothing but super informative, and patient w my noobness.....so hell yes you make my list. You're info has always been spot on after I've read up on what you've told me. Always appreciated!
"So I just got back from Home Depot and Lowes, neither one of them had ANYTHING except miracle grow this and that." That sux, man! I say do a google search and look for availability at another HD store location. There's gotta be a store within 30 miles of ya that has it. Maybe 50 miles. I just bought a Premier 3 cu. ft bag today. And most of the stores w/in 30 miles of me had it. My apologies if you tried already.
I work about 30 miles from my home ( the boonies haha ) so I am going to check with a couple stores on my way home from work today, worst case I am going to price the peat and perilite and see if i can mix it cheaper. I'm not worried about doing a $10 mix over a $75 mix but at the same time, 5 bucks is 5 bucks! I am picking up the items that I know I can't get except at the specialty store ( worm castings, sea bird guano, etc ) along with some sunshine mix #4 for starting. You all have been amazing, and yes - I have been creeping through your previous posts ( oooo ) and the wealth of information... its insane. Maybe these hippies arn't so bad after all haha! Except for that whole no eating meat thing... maybe : ) None the less, I will keep you all updated and I am sure I will have more questions. Till next time, Semper Fi Hornchen
Alright, making some small steps forward. Picked up 3.8 cubic feet of compressed pro mix bx with mycorrhizae, ground alfalfa meal, rock phosphate, agricultural limestone and worm castings. The guy told me that the compressed bail is actually like 8 cubic feet, is this true? Did I just screw up all my ratios? Haha! Tomorrow I am going to pick up the sea bird guano, epson salt, azomite and order the powdered humid acid online. I priced the kelp meal, 20 bucks for a small bag. Is it okay to go with the liquid version or is this one of those you get what you pay for things? I'd rather save and push things back an extra pay check than rush into it. I must admit, feeling really good about thi project, and it's all thanks to you all! Much appreciated! Hornchen
Looking good ! I treat a 3.8 cubic foot bale of promix as 3.8 cubic feet when adding amendments. Sure you can fluff it up, but it's still 3.8 cubic feet of promix. When it comes to kelp products, the meal is far, far superior to any liquid product. IMO, they are not even in the same league. You definitely want the real deal kelp meal. But that little bag of kelp meal will last you a looooong time. I know it's expensive, I searched all over trying to find the best price and in the end I had to just suck it up and pay the $17 for 4 lbs at the feed store (they don't sell it in bulk at my store). But that 4 lb bag of kelp meal has made probably 15-20 cubic feet of soil and I've still got 1/3 of a bag left. It actually works out to be cheaper than the liquid kelp in the long run (not to mention more beneficial for your plants and soil beasties). Glad you are keeping us updated!
Spot on ITG. Kelp meal is way cheaper in the long run. I'm not a big fan of epsom salts. Mg is found in a lot of the stuff we already add to our soils. I've used them in the past but I have a feeling that salts reak havoc on our microbes. I'll like to let them sort everything out. I have yet to see anything close to "Mg or calcium lockout".
Thank you everyone for the encouragement - I will say it pushes me a bit to get things done properly. I will treat the 3.8 bag as what it is, especially since I can keep my ratios and not ask the wife to help me with math ( haha ). I will just have to bite the bullet on the kelp meal - the more I read about it, the more the $20 tag might just be nature of the beast. I will research the MG also, I have heard people talk about mg or calcium lockout but I have not actually researched it much yet. I will make that todays project. I heard the salts took longer to break down and were good for the middle to ending part of the flower cycle, where they are magnesium and sulfur hungry machines. I would rather not top dress those items and thought the salts would be a 'decent' long time release alternative. If I am way off the mark tho, please let me know. Thanks again everyone! Hornchen