If God created Lucifer..

You are not debating 13 year olds, if you were you probably have people agreeing with you. Nice try though. You say these things because people do not fall at your feet and agree with you? I do not understand why you have to be so offensive? Oh well, two can play at that game. On a side note, you certainly are a wonderful message for the loving religion that is Christianity. Jesus would be proud.

All I do is use common sense and logical deduction. You do not have to believe that of course, but it does not change the facts. There is no difference, God has told lies and God has commanded that others tell lies. If you knew your Bible as well as you claim, I would not even need to show verses, you should already know 'em. But you do not, so, have you read the Bible, or have you just read about other people who have and they tell you he did not so that is good enough for you?

To answer your question. Yes, of course you have lied, why should a battle make any difference whatsoever? Have you sinned? According to the Bible? No, but then, telling a lie is not a sin. I believe the exact commandment orders you not to "bear false witness against your neighbor". I do not remember anything in the Ten Commandments telling someone not to lie per say. Of course, there is a whole slew of laws in the Bible that Christians ignore, maybe it is one of those? lol

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie

So there we have a lie. 2 and 6 would fit into your battle analogy.

I love it when people tell me to "do some Bible research" as if I haven't. It is funny, because when ever they say that it makes me want to say it right back, at least I would be justified. I am not wholly ignorant and I would appreciate it if you stopped throwing those words around when you clearly are the one who does not know what the hell he is talking about. What part of "O LORD, thou hast deceived me" is confusing to you? G0pher gave another good example of a lie from God, go read your Bible like you advise me to do, you may know what the hell we are talking about if you do. If you truly believe I took the verse out of context, show me how I did. Of course, that would require you backup your assertions, something you do not seem to want to do. Why is that? Easier for you to just say someone is wrong when you disagree with them, without even knowing how that is so? You are dishonest.

What desires do angels have? And no, it is not like today at all. You do not stand face to face with God, you do not live in the Apartment next door, you have no tangible proof that he is there. So, how can you compare angels to people? God could not even get the creation of the angels right? Everything he makes turns against him? I wonder why that is?

Why is it an incorrect comparison? You said "God allowed the devil to do harm, because he used him as a tool to test humanity." you never mentioned it only applied in situations you put your stamp of approval on. The book of Job is a good example of God being a vindictive asshole, you're right about that. Everything God allowed the devil to do to Job is something God is guilty of doing as if he did it himself. But hey, he has done a lot of evil things himself. He orders the death of how many in the Bible? The number might surprise you. "Oh but they sinned!" So? According to the Bible everyone is a sinner and nothing changes that, so why is everyone not being killed by god? He picks and chooses his time to fly into a murderous rage? It is his fault we are what we are, he should kill himself if sin is such a bad thing in his eyes. The sins of the father and all that jazz. lol, such an odd little book of contradictions, the Bible.

No, he did not enable evil to possibly happen by giving us free will, though I am saying he enabled evil. And if he did enable evil, as we have both know said, they he created it. Logic, use it much? The devil fell long before we were around, did he not? The devil was obviously able to become evil, even in the presence of a perfect and just God, who for some reason, screwed up every creation he has made. But that cannot be, right? So, God must have made the devil for the sole purpose of going evil and coming down to tempt us, knowing we would fail. His intent does not matter. The road to hell, as they say, is paved with good intentions. Since he created it all, and knew it was all going to happen, he is completely guilty in every regard. I do not care how you try to dance around that, it is quite simple to grasp, quite logical, and quite correct. My previous analogies have shown that, no matter if you choose to accept them or not. I do not expect someone as dishonest as you to admit they may be wrong.

lol, if he uses evil to do his will, and the result is an evil done, then yeah, he is kind of guilty there buddy, sorry you do not see things realistically. My understanding is anything but flawed. I cannot say the same about your intellectual dishonest, moving of the goalposts, and nothing resembling logical thought.

Rightfully bring glory to himself, so bringing glory to himself (because he is a teenager) justifies every torture, every death, every sickness, every disease, and every pain done to humanity? Hitler sounds like a nicer person than this god of yours.

You did not say those words, but everything else you have said pretty much confirms that idea. Obviously god himself saying he created evil is not enough for you. Keep on cutting that Bible apart man.

You do not need a telescope to recognize the constellations, if you did, I doubt the ancient Greeks or other peoples of the world would have been able to come up with the concept. Do you think before you say something, or do you let someone else do that for you?

 

gopher:

Maybe not exactly, but from everything we know from God's word, they are beings created in God's likeness as well. we recognise them as the same sort of sentient beings, and when CHristians die they will be transformed in the likeness of angels.

Sure. Why not? You act like just because angels are in heaven that means that they have no opportunity to doubt or be deceived. People, whether in heaven or on earth, can be led astray by thier own corrupt desires and fall to doubt. Noone has seen the father at any time. Noone can perceive the all of the fullness of the godhead in one moment. He is eternal. It requires faith to perceive the given knowledge of his eternal nature.

No he has not.

God gave Ahab over to his own desires. He chose deceit so God gave him deceit. As it says in the new test., you are a slave to whomsoever you obey. God puts evil rulers over evil people, and he hardens the hearts of those who harden thier hearts against God.

He's responsible, yes indeed. He's responsible for giving the person over to Satan according to their own desire. But that does not mean he's responsible for the lie itself no he's not. Yes, God intentially decieved Ahab. It's true. But the lie that was used to deceive him was not God's fault. He gave the demons authority to deceive him, and since the demons had already authority over him, they used a lie (out of thier OWN authority) to acheive that means. There's nothing wrong with deceiving people with the right motives, but lying is just not the same thing. Whether Good or evil, God can use both to serve his own purposes, and that does not make it evil, he's rather harnessing whatever motives their are to achieve his own ends. But if you understood how he does this, you would not be so aghast. Read romans and you will undestand. He uses evil to confound evil, and give glory to the truth!

(

Not true.

Not true. It's more complicated then that.

What are you talking about? There is unfulfilled prophecy, but he has fulfilled what he said he would fulfill when he intended to fulfill it.



You are wresting the word of God to your own destruction, just like Peter said. You won't acknowledge the reality of scripture, THAT IT IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. It is not so simple to discern. God's ways are not simple, they are complicated, and when you put in additional factors, it can change the situation completely! You use simple logic to discern a complex matter.

liquidtruth:

You have blown my comment WAY out of proportion.

No you do not. You argue from your own bias, without recognizing your presuppostions. You do not compare both sides, and you do notfactor in obvious realities of human nature and the reality of this world. When using logic, you must always use self inspection, because human logic is not something so easily apparent as the light from the sun, you can come to different conclusions depending on evidence, comparisons, factors, presuppositions etc.

Trying to tell you how well I know scripture is useless. It is like two stoners arguing about how much better one knows weed than the other.

No you have not lied. Tricking someone, and lying to someone are not the exact same thing! And yes according to the bible, lying is in fact sinning. It's not in the ten commandments, and there is much more to God's righteousness than the ten commandments.

can you deceive someone without lying? Yes you can. So they are not the same thing. Why do you bring man's definition into this? do you understand that God's ways are different than man's ways? God's definitions are different than man's definitions. This is one of the many reasons why it says " trust in the Lord, and lean not upon your own understanding".

God did not deceive Jeremiah, although the prophet boldly accuses him of it. In a highly poetic and emotional prayer, the prophet vents his frustration over a ministry that is going none too well. He had been subjected to mockery, persecution, and physical abuse. But when he tried to quit preaching, the word of the Lord was like a "burning fire" in his bones that he cannot contain. His call compelled him to persist. It is in this context that he accuses the Lord, "though hast deceived me". Jeremiah seems to be saying that he had no idea of what was in store for him when he entered the prophetic ministry. Although God had alluded to the troubles coming his way (1:8, 18-10), he had not imagined that his ministry would be so difficult.

What desires do angels have? Very much the same natural desires that humans had when they were first created, that have the potential for abuse. There is very much tangible proof that he in this world, and that is a great reason why you have come to the wrong conclusion.

You judge God's actions wrong because your understanding of justice is corrupt, your presuppositions are faulty molded and brainwashed by the manner of this world. But if you looked with an honest heart you would see the true justice that God has given us all knowledge of in our conscience. He picks and chooses who he will kill according to their works. Some people are just so evil that he kills them right away, some people he has forbearance with so he might save thme or use them as a vessel of wrath to bring glory to himself as Pharoah. No it is every man's fault for his own personal sins that he commits. He judges us every one according to our individual ways. The sins of the father? If you knew scripture at all you would understand that when God destroys a family for the sin of the father, it did not mean the children were judged with the same judgment as the father, it means they were destroyed along with him because of his own special purposes, and they deserved to die because of their own sins, so God had every right to judge them. But as it so happens, the bible clearly points out that the children are NOT to be judged along with the father.

Yes, he did enable the possibility for evil by giving us free will. Just because you enable the possibilty for something does not mean you create the thing that is possible of doing. If I create a hammer, that can be used to either strike a nail, or bash someone's brains out, am I responsible if someone's brains get bashed out with the hammer? NO! Everyone according to their works. No, God created everything with the intent of good, he never wanted anyone to fall. But God is not going to not make living beings just because they choose to do wrong. Their was the possibility also that the devil could have chosen good, but HE made the choice to do evil, and HE is responsible for it. God made the universe and living things in the best way he could. Because some fell away is a natural possibility of free will. Yes, you do not care about my reasoning, and nomatter what anyone tells you, you'll ignore the reasonable logic I or others point out. Your mind is made up.

No he is not guilty there at all. They were going to use evil anyway, God uses it for good, and like I mentioned before, if you truly understood HOW he uses it, you would not be so aghast. (romans chapter nine, but not without understanding other scripture to tie in, including references in o.t. to when he speaks of potsherds and vessels.) You don't have all the information or recognition to come to a valid conclusion. Simple minded reasoning trying to discern a complex matter.

He doesn't intend the evil, he merely uses it for his own purposes. There is nothing wrong with God bringing glory to himself. He is in control of everything, if he doesn't do it noone will.

Everything I said confirms the idea to you, because you believe what you want to believe and ignore and fail to seek out any evidence to the contrary. He never said he created spiritual evil.

You just twist everything to your own advantage. When did I ever say anyone MUST have a telescope? It certainly helps, that's a fact.

 

Well we all know that Christianity is the most.. "off" religion of them all..
but anyways, yes, god is one evil, sick, being:

I have never received an adequate justification for the doctrine of eternal damnation here at DC&R so I'm posting it as a topic.

Many Christians claim that their God is omnipotent/omniscient. They claim that their God is a god of compassion, love, and mercy. Yet, with all of this, they claim that God punishes all people who do not accept Jesus as their savior with eternal torment in Hell, i.e. the vast majority of mankind numbering into the billions.

What possible compassionate purpose can infinite torture have? The punishment doesn't even serve a remedial purpose because the tormented one is not allowed to repent. It's only conceivable purpose is sadism.

How is this not evil?
-Metatron

 

If you say so buddy.

Nope, sorry man, you are wrong. I logically rejected Christianity, it was not bias that caused me to do so. You do not want to accept that I am logical. You are placing a lot of misconceptions on me in order to justify your comments and position. You are wrong about me, as you are wrong about most of what you say. I do factor in obvious realities of human nature, I do not know why you think otherwise, other than the fact that you are intellectually dishonest and will use any underhand tactic you have at your disposal to discredit those who disagree with you, since you cannot do so with logic and reason, facts and evidence.

No, because examples can be used. I see you talking about the Bible in a way that shows you cut it apart as much as possible to make it say something positive when it in fact says something negative. This is nothing to be ashamed of, everyone does it. I certainly used to do it. It was the only way I could read the thing without giving up my belief right there. Thankfully I came to realize the lie it was and I no longer live under it. If it helps you in your life that is cool, it does not do that for everyone, and some people prefer to live in reality and not allow fairy tales to dictate their understanding of the world around them.

So, deceiving someone is not the same as lying to them?

I do not know, seems kind of like it is to me. Not saying there is anything wrong with that of course. Deception is a vital part of war, and those who do not make use of it, tend to lose.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says that lying is a sin? God is not righteous.

I use proper definitions, not the definitions as defined by a fairy tale. Can you show me, in the Bible, how God defines these things differently? To lie to someone is to deceive someone. Lying does not always require you saying something to them, but that does happen in your battle analogy as well. There is not the world of difference you are trying to make out. You are simply making this argument to try and say that God does not tell lies, even if it requires intellectual dishonesty and moving of the goalposts. It is the only way to keep your head above water in debates such as these.

Now see, that is something I like to see. I will remove that verse as an indication of God's lying nature. Well done. Thank you for playing. It, however, was not the only verse, and there are others.

No, sadly, there is not. There could be ample proof of a creator, but that creator is not the God of Abraham. Read the Bible to find out why he cannot exist. And even if he does, I would not worship that human with magical powers. If I burn in hell for it, so be it. He is unworthy of worship.

Again, an assumption. I reject most of what this world has to say about a great many things, because logic had little to do with them arriving at many of their conclusions. Nice tactic though.

lmao, he is a monster, plain and simple. I do like hearing that you admit god is bloodthirsty, yes of course you did not use that term and it is my own, but the idea that he chooses who to kill based on their works is purely ridiculous. A little child did some bad deeds so they deserve to die, where a serial killer will lead a long life behind bars... Awesome standards there.

Pharoah wanted to let them go, God hardened his heart many times so he could bring glory to himself by horribly hurting not only the ruler, but the people of Egypt who had no say in the policy of keeping the slaves. lol, you still think God is a god of justice? Why do you think this? Because the Bible tells you so? *shakes his head* Not logical man, not one single bit.

What the hell are you even talking about? <blockquote>Exodus 20:5 = "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Deuteronomy 5:9 = "Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"

Exodus 34:6-7 = And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."</blockquote>But wait! There is more! lol, welcome to contradiction central.<blockquote>Deuteronomy 24:16 = "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Ezekiel 18:20 = "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."</blockquote>Yeah, God is very consistent in his commands. What does the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry have to say about this? Well, Click Here to find out. Obviously, there is no contradiction.

So, God created evil to do what? Help us trim the lawn?

How could the devil choose something that did not exist and if it existed, did God then not have to create it? Or did the devil create a whole new philosophy on his own? God is not the only one who can create? Like, seriously, what the hell are you saying? No, my mind is not made up and I would listen if you were reasonable or logical, but you are not. You would see that if you understood what logic is.

lol, he uses evil for good? That needs explaining because it does not make sense. I will look at Romans Chapter Nine right now. Give me a second. Yeah, that explained absolutely nothing. Care to try it again? Maybe give me actual links. I mean, if you want to make your point, show me your point. I am not going to take it on face value simply because you say so. The question is, how can you use evil for good? Are we talking about the ends justify the means? Killing 300,000,000 people in order to bring about a golden age is a good act? Hmmm...

Why does he have to bring glory to himself? Is he that insecure that he needs constant attention? Heck, there are better ways to bring glory to yourself them becoming a murderer. Like, I dunno, help people. I am sure the people he helped would sing his praises. Heck, he should show his face and invite as all to lunch. But that would give us proof right and he wants us to have faith... But, didn't you say there was ample evidence for his existence? So then... Do we not have proof? If so... What the hell is this faith thing all about? God really needs to make up his mind.

Nope I believe what logic dictates I believe, not what you want me to believe.

Wrong and also a poor assumption. I spent a great deal of my life seeking the "evidence to the contrary". It is not there.

Spiritual evil? What evil were we talking about before?

Let us examine what you said. You said "But as for the constellations I pointed out, I believe that they are manifested from God by his foreknowledge, and the constellations are recognizable to anyone with a telescope." which would imply that people without telescopes cannot recognize those constellations. "and the constellations are recognizable to anyone with a telescope."Notice it yet? lol. Admit when you are wrong. I did. hehe

Who brainwashed you man, they did a real good job and I would like to send them a thank you card for the level of entertainment this is now bringing to me?

 

I feel as though I have sidetracked the answer to this question, by becoming caught up in the idiosyncricies of your reasoning.

I do not think that I can answer your question as posted. However, if it is ok with you I will answer what the purpose of evil is.

The purpose of evil is to be the yeast in the bread. When you are making bread you must first combine all of your ingredients into a mixing bowl, mix them all around and then allow the dough to rise.

When God created humans he took all of the ingredients that he knew would produce the product he wanted, and he mixed them together. However, if he was just to place flour, water and oil into the mix he would not achieve his intended finished product.

Each of these ingredients typify a piece of a person (although their are more ingredients possible, these are the primary ones necessary for bread making). Water is symbolic for the earth, and we are made up of mostly water (just like bread). To be born of water is symbolic of being born of the earth, or a physical (sexual) birth.

Oil is symbolic for the soul, and anointing. It is the piece of energy that is placed into us, that has its roots in life.

Flour speaks about our DNA, as flour is the fruit of the harvest, and it has many members, that come together to make one product; you could not seperate a single contributing grain stalk from a barrel of flour; all you can do is stick your scoop inside of the barrel and take out the amount that you will need.

Yeast then can be added to this mix (before to much flour is added; it must still resemble a liquid, so that the yeast can be dispersed throughout the dough). Once this is done you may add the rest of the flour and then stir everything together until you have created a nice soft dough.

This nice soft dough typifies a baby, as it is all of the ingredients that will later make a grown man, however before this can be complete the dough must be set in the apropriate environment; not to hot, and not to cold, but such a temperature that the yest will be able to cause the bread to rise.

Once the bread has risen to it's height it is not yet complete; it must then be pounded down and shaped into the way that you want the finished product to look.

The pounding typifies the trials that we go through in our life; that shape how we look at the world, and ultimately shape us.

Once we have received our shape, we then can be set in the fire so that we can become the finished product that was intended all along.

The fire symbolizes the new awakening that happens when you are born of the spirit. And is the awakening of the Christ in you; the intended finished product.


I hope this illustration helps you to understand what the purpose of evil is; it is so that we will rise.

I can understand that you are trying to empathize with people that have been affected adversely by the creation of evil. And I feel that as well; I know that there are terrible people that do terrible things, and the creation of that, by your reasoning is unforgivable, because you can see that it is not the fault of a person who is carrying out the deeds, if god was the one who created him and knowlingly allowed him to be like that.

However, I cannot empathize with evil as you do. In my life I have been exposed to all manner of evil things, however they have never touched me; they have been all around me, and next to me but have never pounded me very hard.

The people that have received the pounding obviously do not have the appreciation for it; because they do not realize that without the kneading the bread would not be as the baker had intended it.

Tough trials are able to teach people many things if they listen. And actually if you listen you will be spared many of the trials, because you will not need the kneading.

However, I know that people are not always spared the trials. My uncle, and close friend, is currently recieving treatment for a serious condition he has, which causes him extreme pain and suffering. He told me that the doctors say that the cause of his condition, was the stress that his father inflicted on him in childhood.

I told my mom (his sister) what he had told me, about the cause of his afliction, and then my mom told me just ONE of the things his father had done to him as a child; you see my grandpa was deranged, and used to take much pleasure out of suffering. The one situation that my mom told me that happened to him, was that his dad was in a rage, and took him (of no fault of his) and tied him up with a wire that he pulled out of the wall (which was connected to the phone); he then took more of the length of the wire, while he was helpless, crying and screaming, and beat him with the wire so that blood was on the floor.

Now years later, he still bears the traumatic scars of this event and as you reason, it is Gods fault because God created Lucifer, and his father was the type of person that identified with lucifer. So because of this, it was Gods fault that he is in so much pain, and God must be held acountable for it. (as a side note my mom is much more brutally aflicted because of the traumatic events as well; however she was only whitness to the events because he did not beat the girls; except for her sister once)

My understanding leads me to believe that there is an acountablility for this however we have realize that becoming resentful or blaming God will only make the suffering worse. If you are able to instead focus on love, (or let the fire burn out the yeast) then, and only then can the healing happen.

 

liquidtruth:

No it's not, and it's really obvious to anyone with reason who thinks for half a moment.

If people follow after you because of your reasoning and the reasoning of those pathetic websites, then they very well deserve to fall into a ditch.

proverbs 12:19

19The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.

revelation 21:8

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

God is Truth, there is no lie in him. Noone can speak lies and abide in him. Lies cannot abide in the Truth. The devil is the father of lies.

God is good. He carries out justice and you call him bloodthirsty. He judges wicked people and you call him a murderer. You condemn yourself by your own words. A little child does not have all the capacities of an adult. There is a doctrine called age of accountability, and there is scripture and reason behind it I assure you. You are not the first person to have thought of these things and see these seeming contradictions. People have studied God's word for thousands of years, and Christians have sought for the answers also, and they have found them (at least the true ones have). You just don't get it because your reasoning is faulty and your sources are garbage and deceitful. You are wrong on so many levels.

There is a reason why we are told in scripture to " rightly divide the word of truth" .

No pharoah never wanted to let them go. God hardened his hard, and he intended to use him as a vessel of wrath to bring him glory it is true, but this was according to the foreknowledge he had of the situation, recognizing that Pharoah would harden his hard first. Yes indeed, Pharoah hardened his heart, and then God hardened Pharoah heart. Pharoah chose to harden his heart, and God gave him according to his own desire. An pharoah could have quite possiblity turned to God even after he had his heart hardened multiple times, though not without difficulty.


21And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
22And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

exodus 8:23

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

exodus 9:23

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

etc.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart without any help from God (Exodus 7.13,14,22; 8.15,19,32; 9.7). Then God does one (9.12), then Pharaoh and his officials do one together (9.34-35), then God does the rest.

1 samuel 6:6

6"Why then do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?

Where did you get that information? How do you know? The egyptians could not have kept them in bondage unless they were all working together to persecute them. Furthermore, your understanding is again flawed, because God does not view government the same as unreasonable Americans who feel they should not be held accountable for the corrupt actions of their government that they support. He holds everyone accountable in a nation together, as is quite evident from his dealings in the bible.

It's exactly as I told you. You've found an answer for yourself, a very good one I might add, and apparently you wouldn't accept it. I think I'll post that answer on here so everyone can see.

You did not even understand what i had just said. It went right over your head. God created the possibility for evil, that is the freedom in every creature to choose right or wrong. This is drastically different that creating evil.

Yes indeed, the devil created a whole new philosophy of his own, yet without substance. His knowledge is a void of darkness. That's why Jesus said:

John 8:44

" You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

300,000,00 people? Golden age? What are you talking about??

I just pointed you to a great part of it, and if you can't understand it or won't receive it, then what else can I do for you?

And there are many other diverse examples of God using evil for good. But God does not go hardening people's hearts arbitrarily, he hardens people's hearts who harden their own hearts first, who are rebellious first.

Originally Posted by jonathan

He's not a murderer, and he's not insecure. He is God, and he deserves glory, and glory is fit for God. It is right, it is good, and it is the way things should be. Let God be glorified, and let him receive the love worthy of God. And God does help people. He uses both Good and evil for his purposes, just like I said.

You have the problem, not me. You don't even know what faith is. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. All of the things we can see and smell and taste, things things are temporary. But those things we cannot see, those things are eternal. To have faith is to perceive those eternal things by the conscience and knowledge he has given to us. we have to believe because we cannot see it. It's not blind, it is accepting what we know to be true in out "hearts".

There is also evidence of him in this world that we can see also. The universe for example logically requires a creator. And there is more.

Originally Posted by jonathan

No you may seek out something to cross analize it, but you don't truly seek the truth, because if you did you would have found it. You see what you want to see, and you believe what you want to believe, because you fail to recognize you bias and presuppositions.

You were wrongly interpreting a verse to mean God does spiritual evil, that is sin, when it was in reality speaking of harm, calamity.

Originally Posted by jonathan

No I surely don't notice it. I was merely pointing out that fact that it could be observed by anyone, I never said having a telescope was a prerequisite.

But as it so happens, it seems there is evidence that the ancients did have some type or types of telescope.

http://einhornpress.com/telescopes.aspx

 

Oh no, a creationists thinks I am unreasonable, whatever shall I do?

Oh no, a creationists thinks my sources are pathetic.

Again, your reasoning rests on the fact that he is saying so. You have trouble understanding simple things. lol, if God is a liar, why would he not lie and say he is truthful? Really man, think for a moment.

Oh, so it is okay to kill a child because they have yet to reach the age of accountability? Christians are so heartless sometimes. Yet if you listen to Paul he will say they will burn in hell if they have not accepted Jesus as their saviour. Damn, the contradictions fly as per normal. It is quite a juggling match you pull between psuedo logic and pure babbling nonsense. I can act like I am still in kindergarten too. NO You are wrong on so many levels!

Stop saying foreknowledge. There is no such thing as foreknowledge for a being that exists outside of time. All time is known to him because he exists in all time. There is no past, present, and future for such a being. So, wait, you said God hardened his heart and then you say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Why would Pharoah turn to a fairy tale man, he already believed in his own. Plus, these events never happened, so stop acting like they did, or provide a source proving they did. And no, the Bible is not proof of the Bible.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? Well, let us let the good people at RationalChristianity.net answer that question for us.

[web]http://www.rationalchristianity.net/pharaoh.html[/web]

They would seem to agree with you. Though, again, God says he does something and people of course decide that no, God must be lying or not understanding the situation because he gave us all free will!

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.""

Again, God murdering people for shits and giggles to provide proof of him being the LORD. Wow, I guess I should go and kill an entire old folks home to prove I am THE LORD, maybe then I will have bloodthirsty followers who will justify all my evil actions for me. It would be pretty cool.

However, let us check out another source to answer that question.

[web]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/hardened.html[/web]

Wow! Look at all the verses that suggest God was the culprit, and all those verses that say Pharaoh had a say in the matter... Hmmm, I wonder who did the hardening? Could it be the bloodthirsty-megalomaniac god of Abraham? I think so.

The God is an unjust fool, plain and simple. These people could not vote for their leaders, they had no say in what happened. If their king decided that slaves be put to death, they were, without any of the common people having any kind of say in the matter. You do understand the concept of a King right? You see, I do not much care how Mr. Deity views a situation, I care about logic and reason, something God seemingly lacks. So, you can tell me my understanding is flawed all you want, but you are wrong. My understanding is based upon logic, ethics, morality, not the lies of a fairy tale.

Uh, buddy, I already posted a link to that so everyone could see it. I do not accept it because is intellectually dishonest and requires some pretty impressive illogical backflips. Sorry you cannot see reality.

LMFAO! God created the possibility for evil, but not evil... lol, that is the silliest thing I have read yet I think. You're pretty funny man.

How does this show the devil created anything? Oh right, it does not. God created the devil, God enabled evil (created it) so that the devil could turn and get us to sin, because God wanted to rain suffering down upon the heads of his creation to get his killing fix. Oh, and Jesus never existed, so going by what he said is pretty odd. I should live my life based on the teachings of Gandalf, I know he has mighty powers, the Lord of the Rings told me so.

I made it quite clear what I was talking about. I asked you if you believe the ends justify the means, and gave a what if scenario to illustrate an ends justify the means situation.

That is simply silly. It also infringes on someones free will. Let us say they hardened their heart against an idea, and then God comes along and does it as well. That person does not have much chance then to realize the error of their ways and change their position, because God came and meddled with their life. This God of yours certainly spits in the face of his own rules every chance he gets. He is a liar, though, so what do you expect?

God is worthy of nothing but derision and scorn, he is a hate-filled-war monger. He is not glorious, he has made mistake after mistake. He has people on Earth who were more righteous then him, because they stood up to him and questioned him and made him change his position. He asks people to kill their own children. He turns people into a pillar of salt based upon the direction they look. He floods the world, killing everyone but one family. Nope, sorry, God is worthy of nothing but like treatment in return. Of course, since he is a fairy tale and all, it really does not matter I guess.

Nope, Faith is not the evidence of things not seen. lol, how can there be evidence if you cannot see it, touch it, or examine it? There cannot. That is just a fancy little term to make people feel better. I can have faith in the fact that I am Lord Ao. That means I have unseen evidence that I am an overgod? AWESOME! How about people who have faith their spouse is not going to cheat on him, and while they are having this faith, their spouse is out cheating on them? Evidence of things unseen? Please, that is nonsense and if you were even half way honest you would see that and admit it.

So what? Even if I accepted your argument that the Universe was proof of a creator (which it is not) that would not mean the God of Abraham is the creator. Do you have proof that the fairy tale is not a fairy tale? Of course you do not.

How in the hell can you know that? Because I do not come to the same illogical conclusions as you? Bullshit. "Ask and ye shall recieve". Well, I asked buddy. I prayed. I followed God. I did everything a good little Christian was supposed to do. God is not there. He is not listening. God, as a wise man once said, is dead. You are just rambling nonsense, that is all, you are assuming a lot of stuff about me and you have no idea what I went through or what I did. You are wrong, plain and simple. How does it feel to be wrong 90% of the time?

He said he created evil. But keep on rejecting the words of your God when they do not fit into your world view.

Let us examine what you said. You said "But as for the constellations I pointed out, I believe that they are manifested from God by his foreknowledge, and the constellations are recognizable to anyone with a telescope." which would imply that people without telescopes cannot recognize those constellations. "and the constellations are recognizable to anyone with a telescope." Notice it yet?

I guess you are unable to read English. You clearly said that a telescope is required, it is not my fault that is not what you meant, you should write what you mean the next time, or say you made a mistake. It happens. I fail to see how you can say what you are saying, when your own words show that you are wrong.

I am tired of debating a fairy tale, have something else to talk about besides imaginary desert gods and their non-existent child?

 

http://forum.grasscity.com/spirituality-philosophy/64208-lucifer-damned-his-own-hell.html

 

Not to offend anybody, but I think the whole thing is just stories made up by people and they didn't think that far ahead to consider what you brought up.

 

Someone has to be in charge of all the fools who won't follow god's rules.

 

That is what I would like to believe, do not know if it's the truth or not. I do know that the universe divised our perceptions strictly to perceive what could be -or what was-, (no form without function) however I do not know if it was will or chance that gave God the desire for change. Such absolute change at that.

Could have been bored, could be trapped in a box with no way out and it made Him go crazy. Anything but what He felt, I have no idea. It would seem all-power would guarentee you the perfect solution to any problem and the perfect projection of any desire. So either God lost all-power in the process and that's why things are fucked up, or God wanted things to be fucked up because He was sick and tired of everything always going His way. I prefer to believe He was lonely and bored and did the best He could do with what He had to go off. As perfect as He is- if He got tired of being perfect, who could blame Him for all His problems He created for Himself?

Who could blame Him for seperating the good side of Himself from the bad, if only to give Himself a possibility of another and a different situation? At a chance at something else? I believe the All is subject to forces outside of our understanding, so we can only guess at what is really going on behind the scenes. We can know there is something, but we can never really see it the way God does. It goes back to that Ockham's Razor thing- that we don't really need to know anyways. Life goes on, we can figure other things out at least- we can study the surface. I hate knowing there is something going on behind the scenes but what can I do? I just don't have the senses for it normally, and even if I could see it I could never share what I saw with others. (I already have dealt with this too)

Questions like this are very difficult because it shows a very evil side of God, that God is directly related to evil itself. But I know somehow it was the only way to make it work- freedom, others, chance. It all revolved around a sacrifice of knowledge and power and a seperation of all possible personalities. From what I've heard that's the only explanation that makes sense to me anymore if God exists:

That God is all things wanting to be one thing. It's simple and allows for personal interpretation of why we are experiencing problems when we are part of God. If God's one mission is a problem He can never truly solve... Then what of our problems? Isn't it just the same story all over again... Yet... With a twist? I don't know, it's just as scary as it is amazing to me. We sit in the highest seat in Heaven, only to one day sit in the depths of Hell for the experience. What gives?

Another nature of the Creator outside the thread from me... I gotta pull these thoughts together and present something I know it...

But all of this is wishful thinking and subjective reasoning (wishful thinking by another name) do not take it as fact, just a possibility that makes more sense to me than other explanations I've heard about why God allows Satan to exist. *it's the same being seperated- it allows for something else other than all there is all at once. God is all things wanting to be one thing- so it would take a seperation of egos/possibilities to accomplish this task.

Irronically, the Big Bang sounds about just right for being a representation of the seperation doesn't it?

My Heaven is being somewhere I want to be, not once having to search for something I will never find, not once having the potential to have something you have to wait for or even never get. It is not eternal because I believe after 10 trillion trillion years I might want to actually search around for something and not find it. I believe there is a Heaven in all forms of life, even for plants. I wouldn't mind coming back as a Giant Sequoia one day that's for sure.

Heaven in a society I see as a planet like Iarga, I made a thread about it awhile ago. It's even spiritually selective of who goes there so that the society stays rock-solid. Sounds like the Heaven the Bible talks about (you are the deciding factor on if you go or not)http://forum.grasscity.com/spirituality-philosophy/163337-ufo-contact-planet-iarga.html

I believe our planet has even more potential at being a Heaven-like existance because of our diversity. Unlike on Iarga- here on Earth we could all have uniqueness as well- a variety of different-looking people... Just more variety period. But we have it harder than them- we don't have a spiritual selection process, this is a lot like a sorting ground from what I've seen.

 

I hope you're being sarcastic..

 

How does eternal life with no chance at another equal (a companion) sound?

An eternity of being alone. A trillion trillion trillion years and then another trillion without an equal.

However the laws of physics give me hope at justice- if God is good than an equal amount of God must be evil. We can see the evil as more important or we can choose the good side as the true God. But it's actually better to see that God has sides, The Creator can't lie, but the All can with the power of The Destroyer- and the irronic thing is they both have the same face in the Bible. The God of Abraham was both The Creator and Destroyer in my eyes, working together for some reason (I believe their seperation wasn't as good as it got later on, or maybe that's what They want us to believe and they still are completely connected)

I have to go for the day though, I'll add more later on.

 

The problem with this argument is that how you define the word 'evil' varies. If someone did something evil, say, killed a whole family, then that person would probably have some kind of mental problem. And if they have a mental problem, are they evil?

 

Great observation about how in the bible God was both good and evil; Orthadox Jews don't even believe in Satan.... Although I shouldn't really speak for their beliefs, however I can relay what I watched on the discovery channel which was describing when different religious concepts were discovered, and it said that the time period where the Duality of God was split up into two beings, in biblical terms, was a few hundred years BC; and true orthadox Jews stuck with the original teachings.

In the documentary they say that the reason that there started to be a religion (possibly a cult) which said that there must be an equal to god. The documentary said that people started this cult because a that time period they were going through a lot of death and they found it hard to believe that a God of love would do that... So they decided that their must be an equal and and they called that equal to god Satan.

If you jump forward to modern times you can see that the Christian religion still is preaching about the devil as if he is an equal to god; rather than preaching that he is part of God.

I believe that their is only one god; in order to allow for a material world to exist he must allow him self to become seperate. In the intended separation of himself he allows the creation of further separations (dualities).

This is why it says in Genisis that god created Light and Darkness before he created the stars and the heavens. This light and darkness was 'substance' light and 'substance' darkness; it didn't come from another soure, other than to say that it was a division of God (while still belonging to the whole).

I believe that Jesus is the personification of the Light and Satan is a personification of Darkness. And they are what make it possible to create further dualities. Because they become born out of a binary system. (just like in computers) it is possible to create extremely complex programs with the use of a binary thinking system (either on or off).