If God created Lucifer..

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by g0pher, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. If God created Lucifer..

    Then:

    1. How could he Grow so high while still Under God's Administration since he is his own creation?
    2. How could he have become the father of Lies, Seeing as God is the creator of all things by his original nature.
    3. How could Satan have convinced a 3rd of the angels against the perfect almighty God if heaven is as perfect as believed?

    It seems as if God willfully accepted Satan's challenge, because he obviously foreknew the events that would later occur.

    The struggle between good and evil makeS God look like either a fool, or a willful challenger to game...

    He created his own nemesis, Who grew to have more influence over his own subjects/humans than himself. And he seems unable or unwilling to undo this evil - but has to fight a war against it.

    I see no other way to look at this than that God willfully accepted Satan's challenge
    This is just philosophica reasonings - questions of 'what ifs' - supposing this all happened as believed..

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Yeah, it's rather simple reasoning. If God created everything, then God created evil. If God created evil, then God is evil.

    Now, if you can entertain this idea, I think it would help you understand this problem alot better...

    Man created God in his image.
     
  3. keep in mind all this is not only speculation, but to the people who read these posts, its one of two things; faith to those who believe and mythology to those who dont

    i think though, for the sake of argument, satan was bored. he had to have been. he was tired of serving, and god, too, must have been bored to accept the challange. now, in the cosmologic history of things, there are two sides for people to align with; good and evil.
     
  4. God did create evil, even the Bible is clear on that.


    Of course, Christian backpedaling would say that god did not create evil because evil is not a tangible thing, this of course contradicts what god himself apparently said, but I doubt they are losing any sleep over that... They seem to forget that neither is good. I once had a discussion with someone who claimed that evil was simply the absence of good (lol, so people can only do evil if they have no good in them? What?), like darkness was just the absence of light. It tends to blow my mind that evil is like darkness (does not exist) but good is like light (electromagnetic radiation). Talk about having your cake and eating it too. :)
     
  5. ^ Eh, you should a little jaded I must say. Know your Bible though-


    Love your thread ideas G0ph, gotta hand it to ya. This was another great idea for a thread.

    I think we are caught in the middle of a tug of war between good and evil, life and death.

    I believe God willingly accepted the challenge and is part of the reason I've been upset with Him lately... I wish He would just go easy on Himself for once, give Himself a break. Maybe eternity is just so long He cracks along the line and just wants to fight for a long time. Who knows?

    I like to believe The Creator and The Destroyer are twin brothers and they need each other to exist. It's just the way it goes, can't have black without white.
     
  6. Ill play devils advocate on this one. That was my attempt at a pun.

    Satan grew to his exalted position because god allowed him to when he granted people with free will. He gave people the choice of being good or bad, when people choose to be bad then satan gains ground.

    God acknowledge his creation of evil in the bible. Satan is referred to as the father of lies because he is the one who presides over lies.

    Satan convinced 1/3 of the angels because the angels became jealous when god granted humans with a spiritual quality.

    It boils down to this: Living beings have free will. With free will comes bad decisions, from bad decisions come sin/evil/etc.

    I am not saying I agree with Christian philosophy (Im with classical greek philosophy) but the bible and saints like Aquinas have answered these questions. You guys should pick up "The Shorter Summa Theologica" by Aquinas. It breaks down the highest level Christian arguments on questions like these. Its quite interesting.
     
  7. Lucifer is the morning star -> Sirrus, the dog star (orions dog) located in canis major. When the bible is talking about Sirrus and a third of the angels, you would be smart to realize what was really being talked about.

    Sirrus has been thought to be a binary star system, by modern science, consisting of Sirrus A, and Sirrus B, however recently it has come to light that there is a third star in this system Sirrus C, which is a much smaller star but weighs an extreme amount.

    If you look into this further you will likely come across something regarding the Dogon tribe from Mali, Africa. Who have an oral tradition which describes the Sirrus system as containing three stars, of which one of them is much heavier than the rest. Obviously since modern science has only recently confirmed this; it seems sorta odd that some African tribe would be able to know this without any specialize equipment.

    If you look into this further you will find out that this tribe believes that extraterestrial beings from Sirius visited their ancestors and gave them knowledge of the universe. The story goes that the Sirians are described as amphibious and "serpent-featured".

    Now if you re-read these scriptures with this knowledge you might have a bit of a different interpretation of it.

    This scripture has nothing to do with a dude that sits in some burning hot place in the center of our planet carrying a pitch fork and having horns... All of these symbols mean something... beginning with the pitch fork having 3 prongs, the goat symbolizing downward man (or upside down man... unenlightend man) and so on.

    As for god creating evil... of course he did. However many people have a messed up interpretation of evil or the devil.

    Many people believe that the destroyer is the devil and is evil. However this is not healthy thinking. The destroyer is akin to the holy spirit and is known by many names, of which one is Shiva. The destroyer is a natural and nessisary influance. Think about it; destruction brings new beginnings. It is not inheriently evil.

    As for the nemesis; this is the inevitable creation of the hero figure, (known as Jupiter in astrology, and many other names in many cultures). Currently George Bush is one personification of this force; which is why Osama bin laden has become the personification of the nemisis.

    The hero is created in order to bring in security, in exchange for ultimate power, and control. In order to do this it is always necessary to create a nemesis.
     
  8. today must be a landmark day for unreferenced research. no, is this serious? because I can't tell
     
  9. If you find any of what I said interesting you can look into it more and find your own sources.

    The deep things in life require personal commitment to descover. If your intersted you will put in the time, if your not you won't. If I put sources on what I write then you will asume that the article is important, and not the search.
     
  10. Can you provide links? I do not think it is fair to ask people to spend a massive amount of time scouring the Internet in order to find reasons as to why you have said what you have. Providing the links eliminates that and allows people to go directly to the heart of the issue, as it were.

    ... So, in other words, you do not think it is important that you back up anything that you say and instead expect people to spend what limited free time they have at searching for the reasons you posted what you did?
     
  11. LOL, I sound "worn out"?

    Yes, I do know my Bible, thanks! :)

    EDIT: Please excuse the double post.
     
  12. Thanks Mr G.! Apreciate that alot man, fuck it, jus havent been able to post much in the city lately - been on the road much these past couple of weeks...


    "A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work, A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"

    "And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?"
    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: i the LORD do all these things."

    "The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women and kill all the boys and kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man."

    "A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work, A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!"

    [(Ex 4:11)(45:7 )(Jeremiah 48:10)(Numbers 31:17-18) (Ezechial 9:4-6)"
    This is the character of YAWEH.
     
  13. It's not a massive amount of time, go to google, put in a few key words from what I wrote and I'm sure you'll come across an article or two that says something similar.

    I will back up anything I say, but that doesn't always entail providing a bibliography.

    If you want to know what makes me say what I say, ask me and I will tell you.

    So far nobody has asked that; however you have inferred that you can deduce WHY I say what I say from reading other people's writings on the internet. To me that just seams counter intuitive.

    However, this defensive post has strayed fairly far from the OP's question... Which is my fault for nitpicking the scripture which was quoted from Isiah.


    I think that the OP's question is better understood if you would reason that creation is not a person, but a law. (however due to the conservation of energy, creation is God, but this may be to complicated) This law requires balance, balance requires polarities.

    Satan is the name given to the force of evil and Jesus is one of the names given to the force of Love. Love is understanding and wisdom, Satan is confusion and ignorance. Destruction can be love when it is in acordance with the law of creation, death can be love, suffering can be nessisary, fear is often a needed emotion when it is in accordance with the laws of nature.

    The reason why this question is so confusing is because we are not one with our senses; people confuse harm for benefit, and sorrow for joy. This comes from not being dedicated to seeking for knowledge and recognizing the laws of nature; and instead harboring foolishness.
     
  14. mormonism believes that there has to be opposition in all things, otherwise our time on earth would be too easy. there needs to be that test. even if god didnt mean for lucifer to be evil, he needed someone to be.. they were his sons, lucifer and jesus, and he needed them to help him decide how to rule the world. lucifer wanted to force everyone to be right so that 100% of the people would be guaranteed to come back, but jesus thought that was wrong and thought we should have free agency (which we somehow willingly give up when we are in a religion).

    It's just like the garden of eden, someone needed to eat that apple eventually. if they didnt adam and eve could never have children and they would be immortal.. so eventually they needed to sin, it was part of the plan, and they took the fall for it, sometimes i think its unfair.. but there are many things we dont understand and you just have to get over it

    3rd of the angels sided with lucifer on the choice, lucifer lost as the other two thirds went on jesus side. and lucifer was really pissed off. now they are hells angels
     


  15. It seems folly for a supremely wise God with omnicience and eternal concious to willfully accept a challenge which has so many taxing future consequences (on himself and his subjects/creation). Mayble its like phiegnux has said - God was just - bored?



    So what are your concepts of Heaven? seeing as evil is permantly erradicated out of the way?






    It seems we can say this in this argument, did God allow satan to gain power? if so, god is more evil than satan.

    Then Does satan too have free will? he was given the power to be a God over the creator's creation... the creator allowed evil, the creator is evil.
    ie.

    1. God allowed evil to deceive,
    2. God fornew evil's concequences,
    3. God punishes evil and those deceived by it,
    4. Then God is evil.



    So God willfully accepted the challenge. Then it would be safe to say that he is seemingly more corrupt and evil than satan himself, - because foreknowing the future outcomes of evil which would come to mankind - (eternal damnation) he willfully accepted the challenge and dubed free will with it in the matter.

    So we are all deceived then? by God first and then by satan? if this is so and God is the only being who knows the future, then we are all (even satan himself) just deceived. (by ignorance of the future) and just partakers of something God had already set and known already from the beginning prior to the events taking place and accepting the challenge of evil.

    Satan himself then is deceived, and if this is so.. then God himself is the deceiver, and the originator of all evil - ( ie. knowing a mass murder would happen prior to it taking place and not doing much about it , could arguably be seen as an ethically worse crimiminal than the murderer. )



    We could says that the personification of evil (as Satan) is merely a cop-out for people to blame their own evil on a being other than themself, Its arguable that it is a ruse merely to negate responsibility for our actions and thoughts.
     
  16. He was given the "high" power by God. He was one of the most powerful angels created.

    Because God is Truth and there is no untruth in him, nor can there be. for there to be there would be a schism that cannot exist.

    How could so many people in our day and age be deceived? It happens, people are treacherous. In fact, it's a very good example, because people are under the power of the devil, and follow after his ways.
    God allowed the devil to do harm, because he used him as a tool to test humanity.

    Wrong, it's called a test, and it's called the outcome of wrong choices in a world that allows free will by a wise God.

    The devil is under the power of God. He is allowed to do evil and test humanity because God wants him to.

    It is definitely true that God has accepted the devils challage but that is to prove his righteousness in the eyes of the holy angels and all men at the throne of judgement at the end of the world.

    liquidtruth:

    No you are completely wrong. The verse in this instance is talking about harm. God does harm. God wounds and God heals. This is well known by even liberal scholars. This is the problem when just anybody goes and tries to discern the word of God. Go back and study more carefully.

    To highgrowman:

    You are absolutely wrong. There is no devil as is popularised by today's society as a red devil with a pitchfork and horns. This is not realistic. I could explain how this came to be, but it would suffice to say that people came up with the idea, and it is only of recent in history, created out of thier own imaginations, like santa clause.

    It's not suprising that these people know things about the stars that might suprise us. Look at the ancient people's of south america for example. The constellations we know now, originally were created by the decendants of Adam that were used as signs and reminders of the prophecy of Christ, and biblical truth.
     
  17. God and Devil are One within the mind. Over time, we split them into two and personified them to easily recognize and understand them. Anyone else who tells you differently probably has an agenda :D
     
  18. No untruth? Well, would you consider someone who lies to be completely and at all times truthful?

    Yeah, the difference between the people you are talking about and the angels is that they were around God all the time. They had 100% proof of not only his existence, but his unshakable power. How could the devil have convinced them that he was superior and they actually had a chance of winning against an all-powerful God? Do not miss the question or cloud it over with examples that are illogical please.

    Yeah, that is rather evil. It would be like a parent allowing a rapist to pay a visit to their daughter as a test. If you consider such actions by a parent to be good, since they are trying to teach some fucked up lesson, you are crazy. The same applies to god.

    God is allowing evil to happen, not only that, he is enabling it. Thus, he is just as responsible as the person doing the evil. If a person hires someone to murder someone else, the person who did the hiring is guilt free? Hardly. This is a very child like view of morality.

    And God is guilty for all evil done if that is the case. It is a simple concept to grasp, though I fully except to see you come back and dance around the issue in order to explain it away. Sadly, you cannot.

    I am going to prove that I am righteous by allowing and enabling evil to thrive and commit atrocities! Yeah, great way to prove it. lol, is god mentally challenged? I only ask because that is how you make him sound.

    I should have expected that. God says he creates evil, Christians dance around the issue and confuse it trying to make it sound like he actually meant something totally different. Yeah, sorry, you are wrong and your Bible shows that. Not to mention, you have more or less said god created evil, so why are you disputing that verse?

    No... First off constellations are not created, the stars are already up there in the sky. People simply give names to certain star groupings that make up imaginary patterns that are easy to recognize.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_constellations <-- Read that to help clear up the rest of your nonsensical ramblings about things you think you know but clearly do not.
     
  19. Could it be possible that the scribes of the Bible just didn't take the time to ponder this contradiction before writing it?
    And now it is being justified through intellectual reasoning.
     
  20. I wonder how often on here i end up debating 13 year olds.



    There's a difference here. God's character and his status as the source of all being make that impossble. It's not something I want to get really into. These threads come up so often I just get sick of answering them. Just think about it. If people used some common sense and logical deduction it would help alot.

    That doesn't mean he lied to anyone. If you are in a battle, and you trick your enemy, so you can overcome him, have you lied? Have you sinned? Of course not use some discernment.




    He didn't really lie to Jeremiah. Go do some bible research, and stop pulling up bible verse that you don't even understand the context of. You are wholly ignorant. It's like a layman trying to argue with a scientist on physics. Way out of your league.

    And?


    Actually illogic is the answer. Just as in today's world, people are led astray by thieir desires, they are deceived from the truth that's right in front of their face.

    No, God does not use the devil to go around raping others. That is an incorrect comparison. If you want a good example, read the book of Job. God is not a man, he is God, and he has every right to test man.

    He enabled evil to possibly happen in the beginning of the world when he gave us free will. And there's nothing wrong with that. God is not guilty, because his intent is not evil. The devil intended it for bad, but God intended it for good. Read the story of Joseph.

    Wrong. You're understanding is flawed. There is evil in this world, and God uses both Good and evil to do his will. Noone can escape the will of God. His intents are not to deceive or cause harm, but for the outcome to be good.

    Think about it this way, if he denied the challange and simply destroyed Satan right away, he would not only be giving up an opportunity to rightfully bring glory to himself, but he would also be destroying any attempt at criticim. If someone did that in this day and age, they may very well call them a dictator.

    I have never said God created evil, that is your own corrupt interpretation, don't put words in my mouth. And no, you are wrong abut this verse.

    \t
    first of all, I never said every constellation was given exactly as is depicted in the heavens. But as for the constellations I pointed out, I believe that they are manifested from God by his foreknowledge, and the constellations are recognizable to anyone with a telescope. It is an incredible prophecy, and your lack of faith does not annul it's veracity.
     

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