Here's something i've kinda toyed with off and on but never really put to words. Figured i'd make a thread about it. Obviously it's for buddhists. I should also just say up front this is only for people who believe in buddha nature and dharmakaya. If you disagree with either of those doctrines that's totally fine, but this thread is not for you and i'd prefer to hear from people who have already accepted these doctrines. If we are able to help others, as I feel that I have and will continue to be beneficial on other people's path, and we have not achieved enlightenment, how much more so can a bodhisattva or buddha help others. It is said that the buddha knew exactly how to help each individual. Then you have bodhisattvas who are also far along the path and help others. Well a buddha is simply a physical representation of the timeless truth, right? A manifestation of the buddha nature within us all. Doesn't it make sense that it/he/whatever(will call it it from now on)(not gautama per se, but buddha in general) could help in a way that is beyond being born on earth and achieving buddhahood and helping out for the rest of his physical life? It seems to me that if buddha nature encompasses all and is timeless it could do a lot more than that in terms of helping people to achieve enlightenment. Add that to the bodhisattvas and you have a force helping people towards enlightenment. If buddha goes beyond an occasional physical manifestation, what does it/he/whatever do beyond that to help others achieve enlightenment? If it knows exactly how to help each individual, surely it knows that not everyone will respond to being preached to, at least right away. So who's to say that the person who said that one little comment that stuck with you and helped you on your path didn't say that out of a manifestation of the buddha nature? Maybe once someone achieves buddhahood, they are able to transcend time and space in their efforts to help others. This I think less people will agree with, and i'll admit i've developed this part of it less than the first part. Once again, a lot of you are going to disagree with my basic premise, and if you do that's fine, but this thread(or at least this part) is not for you. We are all buddha by nature, buddha being a manifestation of dharmakaya, the unborn all-encompassing truth. That truth is our true self, and it is all that exists. This means there is no division ultimately, hence we are all buddha by nature. There's two ways I can look at this. First i'll do the one that is less drastic or whatever, cuz i'm pretty confident in at least this part, but not as much about the 2nd part. First, it seems to me that if buddha transcends time and space that any given thing that any given person says is buddha. Or at least could be buddha, i'm not sure which. Like I said, some people won't learn from being preached to, and surely buddha understands that. Note that when gautama lived he was preaching to monks and people who were already at high levels spiritually. Now here's the 2nd part that i'm shaky on and honestly just occured to me. Perhaps all of our buddha natures are helping eachother to realize our buddha nature, ultimately leading to universal realization of buddhahood, or at least enlightenment. Perhaps the fact that there is a manifestation of dharmakaya is proof that we will all get enlightened or achieve buddhahood. Or perhaps there is never universal enlightenment, and that's just the brilliance of it is trying to help others continuously. This is just something i'm spitballing.
Well to start this isn't just for buddhist its for anyone with a mind that wants to think . you have a well put together statement here I like the 1st and 2nd part especially actually it made much sense to me I believe that once you enlighten yourself you'll know just how to enlighten others... and you'll see that buddha in them ... so I agree its ultimately leading to the universal realization of buddhahood
Yea I agree that it's not just for buddhists, I just figured I should say that since I figured non-buddhists would not like the use of the word buddha. And i'm glad you liked it. One thing to consider about universal enlightenment. To the unenlightened it sounds like something they wouldn't want to experience. And that's the brilliance of it, you learn how to achieve supreme happiness from nothing when you achieve enlightenment, and as such you don't need the stuff that the unenlightened need to have that happiness. But really you're beyond happiness at that point. You just are. And by you just are, I mean everything.
you learn how to achieve supreme happiness from nothing when you achieve enlightenment - nice point , its indeed very true eventually they will catch on but we're all in this together anyways
Here's something i've kinda toyed with off and on but never really put to words. Figured i'd make a thread about it. Obviously it's for buddhists. I should also just say up front this is only for people who believe in buddha nature and dharmakaya. If you disagree with either of those doctrines that's totally fine, but this thread is not for you and i'd prefer to hear from people who have already accepted these doctrines. If we are able to help others, as I feel that I have and will continue to be beneficial on other people's path, and we have not achieved enlightenment, how much more so can a bodhisattva or buddha help others. It is said that the buddha knew exactly how to help each individual. Then you have bodhisattvas who are also far along the path and help others. Well a buddha is simply a physical representation of the timeless truth, right? A manifestation of the buddha nature within us all. Doesn't it make sense that it/he/whatever(will call it it from now on)(not gautama per se, but buddha in general) could help in a way that is beyond being born on earth and achieving buddhahood and helping out for the rest of his physical life? It seems to me that if buddha nature encompasses all and is timeless it could do a lot more than that in terms of helping people to achieve enlightenment. Add that to the bodhisattvas and you have a force helping people towards enlightenment. Good post, I'm not sure if I'm helping in any way, I'll just ramble Only certain Buddhist traditions have Bodhisattvas, in fact the idea was a pretty late-comer to Buddhism and there are quite a few who have a problem with it. A Bodhisattva is someone who is highly realised, but forgoing total enlightenment until all beings on earth are enlightened too. The problem is that there is no real halfway stage - except between Kensho and Satori - you either are realised or you're not. If you have realisation to the right degree to be a Bodhisattva then there's nothing more to attain. A Bodhisattva is not really something that can exist, and the goal of making all others enlightened is impossible. I don't know of any who claim to be such in any tradition - though there are one or two in the West who have made the claim wrongly. You asked: "...could help in a way that is beyond being born on earth and achieving buddhahood..." could you explain that idea a little more? Although some branches of Buddhism talk about heavens and hells in a metaphorical way, there is no afterlife for a Buddha or realised being, so no stance to help those still alive from. He can't work from a position beyond life. If buddha goes beyond an occasional physical manifestation, what does it/he/whatever do beyond that to help others achieve enlightenment? Nothing, (to Buddhists) there is no soul or afterlife or continuing essence, no reincarnation (it's re-birth, a different concept) If it knows exactly how to help each individual, Sorry for cutting your post up, it's just you're making individual points I want to answer, not that I think your post is wrong. 'It', Buddha nature, has no mind, it's not a being. The closest words that reach it are that it's 'lucidity' without consciousness. A Buddha, through understanding what enlightenment is and how to reach it, can help each individual, but it's not his Buddha-nature that's doing it. surely it knows that not everyone will respond to being preached to, at least right away. So who's to say that the person who said that one little comment that stuck with you and helped you on your path didn't say that out of a manifestation of the buddha nature? Maybe once someone achieves buddhahood, they are able to transcend time and space in their efforts to help others. Not as far as Buddha himself was concerned TBH. Although we use terms like 'helping beings throughout the three times' (past, present and future) etc. it's not literal. This I think less people will agree with, and i'll admit i've developed this part of it less than the first part. Once again, a lot of you are going to disagree with my basic premise, and if you do that's fine, but this thread(or at least this part) is not for you. We are all buddha by nature, buddha being a manifestation of dharmakaya, the unborn all-encompassing truth. That truth is our true self, and it is all that exists. This means there is no division ultimately, hence we are all buddha by nature. We are all Buddha-nature and potentially Buddhas, yes. Now here's the 2nd part that i'm shaky on and honestly just occured to me. Perhaps all of our buddha natures are helping eachother to realize our buddha nature, ultimately leading to universal realization of buddhahood, or at least enlightenment. Perhaps the fact that there is a manifestation of dharmakaya is proof that we will all get enlightened or achieve buddhahood. Or perhaps there is never universal enlightenment, and that's just the brilliance of it is trying to help others continuously. Again, it rests on the idea that Buddha nature is conscious and able to do these things for the sake of the good of beings. In Buddhism ultimate nature isn't defined as good or bad, it doesn't have a plan or even the ability to intervene in lives, it has no intent, it isn't holy or even spiritual. Dharmakaya manifests apparent realities, but when all is Dharmakaya, nothing has arisen, nothing passes away. Where are the beings to help? MelT
This is a great post =] Your understanding of buddha nature doesn't seem far fetched at all. Afterall, you are supposed to find your own truths. This should help; "A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: `Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?' Joshu answered: `Mu.' [Mu is the negative symbol in Chinese, meaning `No-thing' or `Nay'.] Has a dog Buddha-nature? This is the most serious question of all. If you say yes or no, You lose your own Buddha-nature."
I am interested in the idea of Bodhisattvas, and consider myself one. As a bodhisattvas, in my understanding falls under the following three categories: king-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to become buddha as soon as possible and then help sentient beings in full fledge; boatman-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to achieve buddhahood along with other sentient beings and shepherd-like bodhisattva - one who aspires to delay buddhahood until all other sentient beings achieve buddhahood. Bodhisattvas like Avalokiteśvara and Śāntideva are believed to fall in this category. I think a bodhisattva goes through various stages, and everyone who puts themself on the path becomes a buddha. buddha nature is in itself enjoyable. It is extacy
"Enlightenment" is the start and the finish. I personally do not think there is much more beyond enlightenment. Because I think enlightenment is not something that you can catagorise like achieving and going beyond. Because first of all, to become re-enlightended (because we all were and still are, but were just distracted from that fact imo) you need not do something, you actually need to undo things. Any Buddha is just helping others re-member who they are. What goes beyond the beginning? If you go to the absolute core of your being, there will not be alot that will go beyond, or actually beneath that. Cause in my opinion there is 1 misconception, and that is that u have to Do something, Go somewhere, to achieve this goal of enlightenment, which i think is false. So in order, misunderstandings take place, because u put a wrong mechanism over the whole deal. But I understand your drain of thought. I think that Buddha's CAN help people attain more than their true self, but in essence its all About your true self. And any action will be right action when you act from your true spirit. Dunno man, I can go on for ever about this subject.
Hi T'. In those traditions that do use the term (my own included) the term is only awarded to those who have risen through the Ten Bhumis. This can only begin to be worked ononce the practitioner has become enlightened. A Bhodisattva isn't on the way to becoming enlightened, he already is; what is incomplete is his final step into Buddhahood, which he refuses to take, hoping too to stave off death to prevent praranirvana. If you are enlightened, I would be very interested to hear your experience of it and how you now regard ultimate nature? What are your practises in the phase of 'no more meditation'? Are the grounds arising or falling away? It would be untrue to say that everyone on the Path becomes a Buddha, sadly, even many Monks die without having glimpsed Buddhahood. MelT The Ten Bhumis Wiki is pretty accurate in this case, so: The bodhisattva's path to awakening in the Mahayana tradition progresses through ten hierarchically arranged stages, referred to as the "bodhisattva bhūmis" (enlightenment-being grounds/levels, Tibetan: byang chub sems dpa'i sa, ). The Sanskrit term bhūmi literally means "ground" or "foundation", since each stage represents a level of attainment and serves as a basis for the next one. Each level marks a definite advancement in one's training that is accompanied by progressively greater power and wisdom. The first bhūmi, the Very Joyous. (Skt. Paramudita), in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth; The second bhūmi, the Stainless. (Skt. Vimala), in which one is free from all defilement; The third bhūmi, the Luminous. (Skt. Prabhakari), in which one radiates the light of wisdom; The fourth bhūmi, the Radiant. (Skt. Archishmati), in which the radiant flame of wisdom burns away earthly desires; The fifth bhūmi, the Difficult to Cultivate. (Skt. Sudurjaya), in which one surmounts the illusions of darkness, or ignorance as the Middle Way; The sixth bhūmi, the Manifest. (Skt. Abhimukhi) in which supreme wisdom begins to manifest; The seventh bhūmi, the Gone Afar. (Skt. Duramgama), in which one rises above the states of the Two vehicles; The eighth bhūmi, the Immovable. (Skt. Achala), in which one dwells firmly in the truth of the Middle Way and cannot be perturbed by anything; The ninth bhūmi, the Good Intelligence. (Skt. Sadhumati), in which one preaches the Law freely and without restriction; The tenth bhūmi, the Cloud of Doctrine. (Skt. Dharmamegha), in which one benefits all sentient beings with the Law (Dharma), just as a cloud sends down rain impartially on all things.
As I hope you'll see above, there's an awful lot more that comes after realisation (Kensho). For example, Kensho is usually a fleeting experience that a practitioner may have, they enter it and leave it. Satori is a more permanent, eventually ever-present version of that, and it comes with a number of special qualities that aren't present in Kensho. Once Satori is 'firmed up' there is even more to do and perceive, it's a continually developing state. Although I use the term Satori here it's really a Zen term that refers to a kind of upper Kensho, not the full realisation of the ground of being that can be reached via Mahamudra and Dzogchen traditions. MelT
So actually you're talking about permament and impermanent stages of realisation? What my point was, is that once it is permanent, there is not much more left for you reach so to speak.
I was thinking about that the other day, and what I came to was that realization and enlightenment isn't exactly the destination it is the process. I believe that once enlightened one has more left to reach for then before hand. It is like anything else, the fine details become like fractals, like a microscope on a pond, it always just keeps getting deeper; and the more ability you have the deeper you can dive. Oh and MelT, if you take a look at Cold Mountain Buddha, you will find that he did not go through any traditional process. So if that's what your holding onto, you will miss the boat.
I can assure you I hold onto nothing You're mistaking my posting for meaning that only those who are a part of established traditions can be enlightened (remembering that enlightenment in terms of Kensho is not Buddhahood). That's far from true, many people have become realised without meditating a day in their lives or joining any kind of a group. Has anyone become a Bodhisattva spotaneously? No, not so far. The Zen stories of the Cold Mountain don't contain any tales of anyone reaching Buddhahood, only Kensho. MelT
Kind of yes and no. You can stop at Satori (permanent or semi-permanent) if you want to, but there's still plenty that can be done afterwards if you want to. It's by no means required though. MelT
Bodhisattva in terms of Mahāyāna Buddhism comes from taking the vow of Bodhisattva. Much like the Nazarene vows of Judaism (with different connotations of course). So can one spontaneously take the vow of Bodhisattva? I think the answer to that is yes. Mahāyāna Buddhism honors Cold Mountain (han-shan) as the incarnation of Mañjuśrī who, within esoteric Buddhism, is a meditational deity, and considered a fully enlightened Buddha. However, I make no claim to Cold Mountain's buddhahood, and only named him by how he is called, Cold Mountain Buddha, because I was certain that he would not fit into your box. Edit: Thought I'd add this quote to think about: "at the point of absurdity can be found the origin of truth"
It was written down late. To me it's an unavoidable truth, but as with everything I am free to my understanding as are you and everyone else. There are no buddhas. It's an illusion. All there is is what there is. All things are, and yet are not, including buddhas. Therefore, what there is, or is not, extends to all things in life. It's all speaking of the same thing. Buddha transcends time and space, and therefore everything is "buddha," although there is no buddha. There is no life to work from beyond. Life is an illusion. Death is an illusion. Buddha is what we all are. "A buddha" is simply one who has realized it firsthand. Don't even think of it in terms of helping. There is noone to help, and nothing to help them achieve. Not as far as Buddha himself was concerned TBH. Although we use terms like 'helping beings throughout the three times' (past, present and future) etc. it's not literal. There is no we. There is no potential. There simply is. My ideas are still developing. I feel like I just had a pretty big breakthrough, as represented in this post. Let me quote the diamond sutra, chapter 3. Of course when I say the buddha will help others to become enlightened it's the best way I can explain what happens. There is no buddha, there is no others. There is no enlightenment to be had, nor unenlightenment to be stuck with.
I can't help but feel that all conversations about the truth are laughable in their attempts. Words don't even begin to describe. Everything feeds into samsara.
I think you misunderstand me. All actions that "I" do feed into samsara. All words that "I" say feed into samsara. Without samsara there is no me, therefore everything that I do feeds into samsara. Also any of these words of mine which attempt to describe the unborn are laughable, as the unborn can't even begin to be described with words. That's not to say it's useless, but to think you can read or hear the truth is so far from the truth.