Humans are animals too.

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by desuforeverlulz, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. #1 desuforeverlulz, Jan 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2013
    This is basically a further explanation of what my sig says. The perception of myself and of others totally changed after the course of a few experiences with an unmentionable. Instead of seeing myself as the person I "am", I see myself as a consciousness. We are not the people whose lives we experience. We are merely byproducts of a powerful organ generating consciousness. If I were a 3rd person observer of the physical universe, this one would be doing the exact same thing he is doing now: writing this post about how he came to the realization that his consciousness and brain/body are actually separate entities, while also being one in the same throughout the course of one's life. This one will eventually die, but I will not. I will either absorb into the dust of the unseen universe as I was before this one was born, or perhaps I will reincarnate into a new being.
     
  2. I'm with you on your sig. I've felt that feeling many a time before, but after my DOC wears off, I forget that feeling as quickly as it came. Afterwards I wonder whether it was too much for me to comprehend or if it was just pure hogwash - I can't tell.

    I'd love to see what the other more experienced members post, though.
     
  3. It really is your personal preference. It doesn't exactly matter how you perceive your existence. Many perceptions are equally valid.
     
  4. You're right. Black and white thinking gets you nowhere.
     
  5. Does this mean you don't include your physical body as part of your identity?

    I'm a little confused by your use of plurals here. This is my understanding of what you said: None of us is defined by our experiences. Our bodies are simply vessels to support our consciousness - by which you mean collective, if I understand the link between your sig and this post correctly. If so, what led you to believe this? Have you experienced another's thoughts/emotions without being physically influenced by them? It is unreasonable to declare our physical bodies are simply vessels of consciousness - it implies the physical body is useless. This is not the case. Going back to our experiences not defining us - that would be true if our bodies had no impact on our conscious. However, the body is directly linked to the mind. Neither can function without the other.

    Without a body to interact with the world, you would not be who you are now. If it were possible to separate body and mind permanently, you would have no interaction with the physical world. Your existence is substanceless, useless, and can never change anything. I think this can be interpreted by the idea of purgatory - for how would you even kill yourself? How would you move? Without a body, you cannot physically exist, no matter how you perceive our world. Something physical must be there in order to exist.

    Yes, your body will decompose and you will no longer be an agent of change, but a tool for it. You will not be aware of this, as there will be no linking processes to create consciousness.

    Have you ever recorded these ideas? When I feel I am deepest in thought, I will write it down. It helps sort out what I'm thinking. I can easily spot any logical jumps I've made, and return to it in a different state of mind. It can be expanded upon, or disregarded. As you later posted, black and white thinking gets you nowhere - so re-read it multiple times. You always learn new things, and you may just learn something that debunks your entire idea. Perhaps you know it subconsciously, and when you think about it logically you know something's wrong but can't pinpoint it. The more you learn about our universe and its history, the more pieces you can fit to the puzzle. Eventually you realize it was an elaborate way to distract you from something actually very simple. :smoke:

    Your perception only matters once it's reflected in your actions. But at that point, it matters in the sense that it has an effect on your environment. It could snowball, or it could fizzle out. The more you learn, the more you understand how your perceptions affect the world around you. Many perceptions are also not valid, because they are based on ignorance, and do not make actual sense.

    Preference of perception is definitely up to the individual, as are all preferences. But those preferences are based on some kind of guide lines, perhaps a moral code. We must then ask, are all moral codes equally valid? I think that's a much easier question to answer, albeit a much longer topic :p
     
  6. #6 Boats And Hoes, Jan 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2013
    This stance can explain deja vu... interesting:bongin:.

    But, the implications... pre-determinism, really? Maybe the events of our lives are predetermined, but, the emotions(consciousness), we experience, in regard to the event itself, aren't? Enlightenment is not precipitated by learning, mechanically, the tangents of the physical world, but by contemplating and understanding the meaning of the tangents themselves, i.e., the emotions/ideas/consciousness we experience in relation to the physical events our. But, emotions/ideas/consciousnesses, can also be predetermined, by the latent and manifest effects of a pernicious environment, and also by the mind itself, we don't full control our minds, in some weird way our minds control us, the subject -- this reminds me of a great quote, "When you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. You do not have to tell him not to stand here or go yonder. He will find his 'proper place' and will stay in it. You do not need to send him to the back door. He will go without being told. In fact, if there is no back door, he will cut one for his special benefit. His education makes it necessary." So, if an environment and the tainted mind are the regulator and molder of the collective and subjective consciousness, can u really blame the victims and subjects of the environment for not reaching higher levels of consciousness?
     
  7. Damn right we are... animals that is.

    We are animals. Yup.

    Bipedal animal. Very clever animal.

    Social animal. Omnivorous (did I spell it right?) animal.

    Very developed animal.

    Land animal. That is to say, we can't breath underwater. Without some artificial device, that is.
     
  8. Up to a certain point (mentioned by the next quoted word), they still are.

    Enlightenment, or realization, is a realized understanding of both. It's consistently and consciously being aware of the universe and its workings, as well as our individual and group reactions to it.

    Again, until realization. Then, it is a combination of our minds and our environment. There is no controlling, only seeing what is there and the reactions - from you, your friends, everyone else, and everything else. It is an implicit understanding of how things work, and any confusion is sorted out through research until you can explain it to others.

    The mind of an immature man.

    Blame is irrelevant to the enlightened, because it is a 'why' or 'how' question, which can be eternal, and as infinity is an (/a literally) unrealistic ideal, it can be disregarded. If reliable information that counteracts this comes to light, it will be adjusted for.
     
  9. Just wanted to say, that the above comment by CKTONY made me think of someone dissecting some insect or a frog...
     
  10. datshit cray, i get it.
     
  11. #11 Boats And Hoes, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2013
    1.) How are u so sure our lives are predetermined?

    2.) How is it not about control? To be enlightened is to able to tame the raw and insatiable Will of Man -- this is achieved through Mind power and understanding, in relation to the events we experience during our lives. Why do u think the masses are feed poison day in and day out? It's all about control; again, control a Man's thought's and u won't have to worry about his actions. So, the power system is basically all about mind control, which consequently predetermines their actions and emotions to be conducive to the rulers agendas. It's hard to be an angel when ur hell; and it's hard to precipitate understanding when ur spoon-fed lies and illusions from youth.

    3.) This is quite a judgmental and dismissive opinion; I'd like to see u become a Man of understanding in one those slums which are so replete throughout the world; I'd like to see u become a Man with self-respect when u've been treated like a beast ur whole life -- shitted on and ostracized by ur community... so, again this opinion is too dismissive.

    4.)
    What?
     
  12. Don't forget about free will. We have the power to do anything in this world because we exist.
     

  13. That would be correct.



    The way I perceive my being doesn't have to do with whether or not I see mankind as a collective consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, although I have considered that this is probably the case. Our ever-changing awareness is a figment of the universe itself.

    Also I didn't imply that, the physical body has a very clear purpose and that is making sure we exist as long as possible.


    It was a hypothetical situation, obviously an awareness couldn't just be floating around. I imagine the little ball shaped robot from Halo Forge.



    Interesting. Instead of your focus being on the changing flashes of activity in the brain, making us an agent of change, you're focusing on the decay of the body into a more earthly substance, making us the thing being changed.



    I have a very good memory and I find writing things down usually bogs me down. After an experience like that I am not bound to forget the multitude of things I have learned because I will have retained them, accepting that my experience with an unmentionable is a highly unique one that my conscious mind would have a lot of focus on.


    Interesting conjecture. What makes you say that our actions matter? Simply on the premise of morality? What about when all humans die, doesn't morality die with them? So will the actions done have mattered?
     

  14. People who act a certain way aren't really at fault for the way they've come to think*. You can argue all day long about what exactly creates negative personal constructs but it primarily comes from our experience, and our experience was pre-determined. While we can make decisions that would have influenced us better not to take a destructive course of action, the decision we DID make came about from previous constructs in your mind. Every thought and decision is based off of a previous one, so even if by the time we are making advanced decisions like whether we want to eat at McDonald's or Steak n Shake, and it seems like such a matter is left up to a person's "free will", the choice was already made. Last week at McDonald's there was a bum screaming about his ketchup packets, so I'll go to the Shake n Steak instead.

    *that doesn't mean I don't think criminals should be punished or anything like that, the deterrent of being arrested keeps many people from committing crimes
     

  15. We have the power to make any choice we please but that's because we've grown to become leisurely sort of beings. Our prime goal is no longer survival. We ensure survival first and then move on to other things that ultimately satisfy our ego.
     
  16. #16 desuforeverlulz, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2013
    This is exactly the sort of thing people don't understand when it comes to the nature of human beings. The man described to you just now is weak, powerless, a puppet, right? And the children of Fred Phelps, well, they are all evil and deserve to die, right? Wrong. They have simply been taught a certain way their entire lives, and we can assume had they been born with decent parents they wouldn't be spewing the same bullshit their parents do. And as a result, every single human being, no matter how disgusting and heinous their actions are should have an opportunity to be re-educated rather than executed if we truly value the sanctity of life. If unfortunately they will always remain a threat to society due to their psychology, then they are a lost cause. The blood of their death is not on the hands of the executioner but rather the people who raised him.
     
  17. Ur saying environments induce people to act a certain way and not another, through experience and conditioning (which in turn constitutes mental constructs)... right? So, how is what ur saying, different than what I'm saying?

    I don't see the reason behind ur rebuke...
     
  18. I think a lot of you are missing OP'S point. Hes not saying our bodies are not a part of us, or not conscious.

    Ill put this the only way I know how. Every thought, leads to another thought. Extrapolating on this you could also say every thought, comes from a previous one. In a way, this is a chain of events. That means the thought you have now, is a culmination of every thought youv ever had. We do not actively "think" about what we are to think about next, so in a way we are not our thoughts, as we cant controll them. We observe our thoughts.

    If I was born to any of you guys genetics, to your parents, and in your life circumstances; I would be you, and you would be me. You would have experienced me life, and thoughts, and I yours.

    As humans we are really no different than one another. All differences aside, we are esencially the same. We all exist within the same DNA "operaring system". We think the same, feel similar emotions, and ultimately are just as insignificant as the next.

    I realize that I was born me, for no other reason other than chance, so what makes me any different than another human being.

    I hate when peoole, forget that there human. We act like were different than another human being, but were not. The same goes for dogs. They may have unique personalities, but there all dogs.
     
  19. #19 desuforeverlulz, Jan 7, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2013
    It's not a rebuke, I'm agreeing with you.

    Edit: I do disagree with the notion that our experience is not predetermined if the events of our lives are. Remember, the brain is a specific arrangement of atoms, nothing more, nothing less, same as everything else in the physical universe. Our consciousness is a result of those atoms being arranged in a specific way, and therefore what our consciousness experiences is as predetermined as the events that take place in our lives.
     
  20. I 100% understand and 100% agree with the OP. I couldn't have put it better.
    This is my response. :laughing:
    But seriously. You GET IT. I GET IT. ;)

    I've GOTTEN it for a few years, though, and it's ingrained in me (the OP and your sig).

    And I'm not talking anything about the un-youknowwhats.

    But I gotcha. Just wanted to say that. It's good to know someone else thinks the way I do.

    I'm a realist. :D
     

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