how long can we carry on like this

We just need oathkeepers, not a bunch of jack boots that think black uniforms and guns are cool. If they do take unconstitutional orders, there will be backlash, and they will be targeted, so if they have any since at all as to what is happening...

 

I don't know who "these people" are that you speak of, but I refuse to live in fear of them.

They may turn me into a "slave" in the future, but I'm not going to live like one now.

 

If anyone throws the first punch let it be the ones that issue unconstitutional orders. The police presence in Pittsburgh was excessive and resemble a police state but no shots were fired to create a modern day Boston Massacre. If the Liberty movement goes on the offensive then it will prove that the MIAC report was correct.

I think the best thing is for the people to continue to protest (even though they aren't listening) and stay on the defensive by protecting your local community and familia. If the tyrants roll into town and disturb the peace then let the shot be heard around the world.

 

I agree completely. +rep

 

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable.

 

The first blow has been dealt. Actually, come to think of it, various blows have been delivered, but the major one a couple years ago, in the form of the Patriot Act.

 

It just isn't sustainable, the way theres too many of us just being a cancer upong the earth! We must depopulate, not procreate. The very people telling us this lie, have ancestors who destroyed mountains to get the gold and minerals out of them and exploited nature and people, so yeah just trust those guys, and save the planet from "climate change"

 

One thing I'll say for sure your post fits well in this the most paranoid forum at GrassCity. The fact is, and I have stated this ad nauseam, but we are not helpless pawns in the schemes of maniacal powers. Indeed if anything the collective of average, everyday people are much more harmful than all of the maniacal powers many on this website seem to be terrified of. Power doesn't come from the top down it comes from the bottom up as it's granted by the masses. The evil that's done by corporations and the government isn't a secret, they're getting away with their dirt in broad daylight, right in front of our very fucking eyes atrocities are concocted and carried out but all we do as a society is think about ourselves. The evil that's done in the world today is done with the full consent/complicity of the people because it is the people. These values that are railed against in this forum were taught by and are carried out by all of us. Our children can only do what they see us doing in life and as such perpetuate our behaviors both "good" and "bad." Greed and avarice didn't originate in a boardroom or as part of some ridiculous plot by the government or "Illuminati," they originate in us and in our daily lives every minute of every day. We can't expect the government or the corporations we freely patronize to have higher ideals than we do.

But if I've learned anything it's that human beings love doing things the hard way, learning especially, even if it's realizing that each of us bears responsibility, not just for ourselves, or our cities and towns, but for the state of the world. Because of this seeming apathy, taken collectively, equals the state of the world and will always equal the sum total of our greatest fears. Certainly we can have revolutions and blood can be spilled in the defense of "freedom," but after the cannons have stopped what are we left with? The same people, albeit a bit more battered and bloodied for their troubles--perhaps a little wiser--but the same people none-the-less and therefore the potential for the same mistakes, no matter who wins.

If America is a slave to anything it's to our individual vices which are most clearly depicted in our government and our state of denial that they truly reflect us.

"The whole body of the nation is the sovereign legislative, judiciary, and executive power for itself. The inconvenience of meeting to exercise these powers in person, and their inaptitude to exercise them, induce them to appoint special organs to declare their legislative will, to judge and to execute it. It is the will of the nation which makes the law obligatory; it is their will which creates or annihilates the organ which is to declare and announce it. They may do it by a single person, as an emperor of Russia (constituting his declarations evidence of their will), or by a few persons, as the aristocracy of Venice, or by a complication of councils, as in our former regal government or our present republican one. The law being law because it is the will of the nation, is not changed by their changing the organ through which they choose to announce their future will; no more than the acts I have done by one attorney lose their obligation by my changing or discontinuing that attorney."

~Thomas Jefferson~

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved), or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press."

~Thomas Jefferson~

 

You don't need to go shoot anyone.

I mean, you should have a gun, but in the end, that's more powerful than actully owning it. It's what kept our nation from being invaded in WWII.

 

There is a difference between selfishness and greed. I agree that most of the people in this crappy nation, and crappy world are raised as you described, but please, recognize that your stereotype might not apply to all of us, especially amongst the contributors of the "most paranoid forum of GC".

All I really gathered from what you said is that human nature itself is inherently drawn to corruption, or that the mistakes of previous generations are mine and I'm no different. Well, I don't believe humanity is naturally inclined towards greed, apathy, and destruction. I think that we are taught it, socialized into it just as you mentioned previously. I actually don't think apathy is the accurate way to describe it as I see the problem being the general public being uninformed and uneducated. You can't care about something you don't know about or can't understand. That being said, thanks for labeling us as paranoid when all we are trying to do is escape the bounds of our socialization so that we can work towards a much better future. If you meant the latter instead though, that its the work of generations of humanity, well then keep your baggage cuz I don't want it. If you insist on force feed it to us, we may force something up yours.

I agree that its human nature to do things the hard way, in that they have to experience things first before passing judgment. The way I see it though is that it's about damn time we learned from our mistakes. And again, please, each of us don't bear responsibility for the stage of the world. Our parents, and previous generations before them do. Shit, I don't even know my father, don't burden me with his sins. Apathy collectively is an average value that doesn't account for the outliers, the ones who aren't apathetic, which I would say are a good deal of people here. Remember, the paranoid ones?

There is a huge difference between vices that only affect us, vices that affect those in our immediate vicinity, and those that affect an entire nation.

 

@AK, who is it that we should blame, the sheep or the shepherd?

 

I agree vitamin.

Every one of us should be protesting. Protest the war. Protest the banks. Protest corporate power. Protest because you can.

It's not that hard. Google: "protest 'insert your area here'". Google: Wearechange

Or fuck it... start your own ish.

The more "they" see the American people pissed off the less bullshit they're going to try to pull on us. It is a finely tuned machine, a balance between apathy and resistance.

 

What civilization is, is 6 billion people trying to make themselves happy by standing on each other's shoulders and kicking each other's teeth in. It's not a pleasant situation.

And yet, you can stand back and look at this planet and see that we have the money, the power, the medical understanding, the scientific know-how, the love and the community to produce a kind of human paradise. But we are led by the least among us - the least intelligent, the least noble, the least visionary. We are led by the least among us and we do not fight back against the dehumanizing values that are handed down as control icons.

This is something, culture is not your friend. Culture is for other people's convenience and the convenience of various institutions, churches, companies, tax collection schemes, what have you. It is not your friend. It insults you. It disempowers you. It uses and abuses you. None of us are well treated by culture.

Yet we glorify the creative potential of the individual, the rights of the individual. We understand the felt-presence of experience is what is most important. But the culture is a perversion. It fetishizes objects, creates consumer mania, it preaches endless forms of false happiness, endless forms of false understanding in the form of squirrelly religions and silly cults. It invites people to diminish themselves and dehumanize themselves by behaving like machines - meme processors of memes passed down from Madison Avenue and Hollywood...
- Terrence McKenna

 

When you post that quote, do you mean all forms of culture, or just certian ones?

 

When I post that quote, I hear Terrence McKenna speaking those words.

When I post that quote, I don't think of distinctions. I feel unity.

 

I could not agree with you more.

But as long as the big, bad government is evil and corrupt and we are all "slaves" and "sheep", then we are not responsible for our own failures or our own bad choices.


It's all very convenient.

 

Your entire post is based on a faulty premise. It literally makes no sense. If the Government is just an extension of the will of the people, how come Government still does things when a vast majority of the public supports it? For instance, the vast majority of the nation supports withdrawing from Iraq. The vast majority of the nation supports auditing the Federal Reserve. The vast majority of the nation was against the bank bailouts and the TARP program. Why does the Government hide information from us? Is that the will of the people, too?

If your position was in anyway logical (It isn't), this country would be a lot different. Here's what you're trying to do. You think a Big Government is inherently a good thing, and instead of agreeing with people who show you that everything the Government touches, turns to shit, you're trying to somehow justify your belief in the paternalistic Government that rights every wrong, and never causes any problems, and you're trying to do so by placing the blame on the average citizen.

You do realize that less than half the country votes every four years? State and Local Government voter turnouts are even less abysmal.

Also, those quotes with Jefferson have to do with Social Contract Theory, it has nothing to do with some asinine theory that the Government is subject to the whims of the majority on everything they do. Anyway you slice the cake, your theory flies in the face of conventional wisdom, reason, and logic. It's also convenient that you left out some other good Jefferson quotes, where he tells us to refresh the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants and patriots, and that we need a revolution every 20 or so years to keep our leaders in check. I mean really, your use of history is selective, and moreover, you're bending it to fit your argument.

 

YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!

Look at the two statements that I bolded. You don't see the relationship there??

Our government is the product of a society that DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT.

We were all gung 'ho to go to war with Iraq back in 2003. People were screaming to "turn the desert into a parking lot" and to "get those towelheads". We didn't give much thought to the consequences then. Now that we are there, and it's not looking so good, we are yelling to get out. If only it were that simple. If only we had the forethought to see this situation in the first place.

We are a country of people with high credit card debt and mortgages we can't pay for, so of course we are going to end up with a government that puts us in debt.

We are a country of adulterers, cheaters, liars, and thieves... so big fucking surprise that so are our politicians.

We have systematically traded in our jobs so that we could buy more cheap shit from China, but when our banking and dollar goes to shit you want to stand back and say "it's the government! it's not MY fault".

The 'vast majority of this country' doesn't support much beyond their own bank accounts. Shocker: neither do our politicians.

 

I just got done sucking down an organic bud that's been curing for a few days, so my initial thought was, why would I waste my time responding to this tripe? I mean, I do feel pretty good right now, why should I ruin my high? Oh fuck it I guess. My entire post is based on the premise that the government reflects the frailties of the people it serves. We're flawed therefore it's flawed, that's my premise and as such we should look more closely at ourselves, that's about it.

The vast majority don't really support the things you just named because if they did they'd be in the streets, not offering armchair objections. What kind of disapproval is that? People support these policies tacitly as they do most things in life, until such a time as they choose differently. TARP, the war in Iraq, and bank bailouts are nebulous concepts to most. Concepts they don't really try to wrap their brains around so they defer to identity. What America is reacting to is a crippling recession, it's only when people are hit in the pocketbook they try to find reasons why it's happening.

The government hides information for it's own expedency as we sometimes hide information from the people around us in our daily lives. Like I was saying the government mirrors us and what we do. Hell, Jefferson in his quote referred to elected officials as "organs" in a body.

Like I said my "logic" is based on looking at self before looking anywhere else. I'm just not paranoid enough to blame all of America's problems on the government. So I can't go there with you, all I can do is ask myself what am I doing that's making the world better or worse?

Also I didn't state what my position was on government's size big or small, I simply made a correlation between human corruption and governmental corruption. What you're getting out of what I wrote is sort of weird because I wasn't saying pretty much everything you just typed.

Sure I realize that, just like I realize that being an American means we share an experience whether we chose to avail ourselves of the process or not. In my way of thinking people that don't turn out to vote are comfortable with their lives and have become so cynical they refuse to believe in the process. But the fact that they stay home is a vote as well, and perhaps it's a testiment to the fact that the "status quo" changes very little from presidnet to president. And in so doing they help shape government, every bit as profoundly as someone that goes diligently to the polls.

Wow, you really don't get it do you? I used those quotes not to argue that the government was subject to the whims of the people. Where you pull this nonsense from is beyond me but anyway, I included the quotes because I was trying to highlight what Jefferson said so well in his quotes, that the people select the government to act on their behalf. The people do that, therefore the government is going to bear their complexion. How the government will ultimately operate is another matter entirely, but whenever it does operate it will contain within it the same human weakness that follows us around in our daily lives. I thought I was pretty clear in my original post, so that fact that you've written all this is a little odd to me because I truly don't see anything of what you wrote in my post.

I've noticed that you like to use the words like "reason," "logic," and "logical fallacy" in a lot of your posts but for the life of me I wonder if you have the sightest idea what any of those words mean; seriously. Also my reason for including only two Jefferson quotes and not everything he ever wrote was because they touched my point succinctly. I wasn't trying to write a history paper on all of his quotes I was trying comment on the OP's thought. The Jefferson quote you cited had nothing to do with my point so I didn't use it. You call it a selective use of history; I call it staying on point.