House and garden nutrients

You're pretty close.. But a lot of times when the tds goes up, a simple topping of plain ph'd water will get you back to where you started.. Sorry, I don't use h&g.. GH maxi line myself .. One part - powdered.. VERY EASY! I'm lazy, like my friend @[member="Original Past"] lol.. Took his advice about the maxi line and I'm loving it..

Edit:
The girls will tell you if they're hungry.. Just keep an eye out for deficiencies ..
http://www.growweedeasy.com/marijuana-symptoms-pictures

 

No replys because most of the people that are here are because of issues with grows or to learn, not because they have huge grows and the experience to share information on. All those guys are laughing at us while they bang out their huge grows with all the nutes most people would use on one plant. Less nutes equals better quality and faster growth. Why does everyone think their outdoor grows with little to no added nutes turn out the best? Yup, you got it, no burned up plant. Nature wont do that to you, you do that to you.
 
You got it brah, your numbers are fine imo. I have used H&G for a year or so at one point in the career. The trick to growing a healthy plant is by letting it do all of the work for you. The best way to do this is by forcing it to find the nutrients but letting them all be there in the correct ratios. In soil this is done by spacing out your watering more but in hydro you need to do this by running lower nute numbers. The ppm reading imo is only a guideline to be able to tell how the water is changing over time. Your ppm dropping daily suggest the feed is slightly low for the plant, this isn't a problem and you can grow great quality this way. The problem is when you over do the nutes and burn the foliage, once you remove the chlorophyll from the leaf (burn spots) you reduce the plants ability to photosynthesize; having all the leaves green and healthy will give you the best growth, not a certain electric conductivity of the water. Other problems with high salts or burned up plants is a reduction flavor, scent, root bacteria, and stunted growth. If you under feed or feed just right you will avoid all of those problems. Once you over do it there's no coming back from it, under doing it is never a problem for the plant and can be easily corrected. I use to always try to achieve a perfect equilibrium in nute to water use but I always seem to have the healthiest plants with ppm dropping daily. Some of my best quality has came from numbers never going above 100ppm on a .5scale with r/o 0ppm water in dwc. These numbers were successfully ran with co2 and 1k lights.
 
With one part powder's I feel like I'm using Miracle Grow or JR Peters (which are good products, that ive seen work great with mj) but I just feel like I'm going cheap on my high quality meds. Good base manufactures incorporate fulvic and or humic acids into their liquids (act as natural ph stabilizer and chelator) I'm pretty sure you can't get those out of a dry formula. I can do some research on it but IMO there's probably a list of things a dry formula can't carry have, that a liquid can. Drosmoke, if you like one parts that rock try gh floranova, it has all the good stuff in it.
 
edit: I also think nute manufacturers are growing huge monsters, not in dwc, and not the 4 -5 foot plants that most people are use to. Maybe those are the ones that can take all of the nutes...? I don't know but have always wondered the same thing, where do these guys get their numbers from? They must be growing oak trees and not the trees we are... Anytime I try to achieve a recommended dose, I fry my plants; and I don't want to hear their environment difference bs because I have every bell and freaking whistle needed to have the perfect environment. I'll just stick with my low ppm...

 

Thank you Bluntzfosho. It cost me lots of time and money to figure it out; I really wish someone would have just told me back in the day, hey dummy you're killing your plants with love. High ppm's cost me a few strains that I really enjoyed but I thought I was just incapable of growing that strain and had to stop messing with it. Every time I had a problem I would be told ph or calmag or lock out so then flush and re-nute. Every nute change I would experience more issues right after, it didn't take a rocket scientist to be able to tell the two were directly related. After about six years of semi healthy plants, five or so nute brands, every additive and calmag product on the market; I was fed up. Wondering why I couldn't just grow a plant without brown leaf tips or small rust spots, it seemed plants outside looked healthier then my plants that I was stumbling all over the place just to keep growing. Checking ph and ppm two or three times a day, taking logs, and constantly adjusting everything; always like dang why is it going so out of range so fast? It was because my feed was off. I have even had ppm dropping daily while my plants burned up; changing the tub with higher ppm, thinking they needed more but they were just trying to equalize the osmotic pressure. I had to read countless pages of information about plants and the way they function, trying to go back to the basics and telling myself that these plants have been around long before our specialized nutes and they seemed to be doing fine then, right? Well then why the heck can't I do it right? I had everything I was said to need.. I kept coming across articles saying dwc systems function better in low ppm environments, I remember it being from a company that sold their nutes specifically for dwc, I can't remember the company now and never used them but the info was always in the back of my head. I remember them saying 500ish ppm and at the time I was thinking wow that's so low.. Then I remembered everyone saying that advanced nutes were so potent, so I was like dang just how low of a ppm can I go with them? I had plants thrive in 80ppm creek water for weeks but changed back to the salts in fear I was under doing them, and then came a slight burn. I read a guys post saying he grew with mountain spring water with no added nutes and the plants thrived. Based on that my stoner ass came up with 80ppm as my magic number because of the creek water. I did a whole bay11 grow while trying to stay in that range. I had some great looking plants with the same yields I was use to. My plants did find a perfect equilibrium at 80ppm and the ph remained stable. I never had to adjust ph after a change, started it at 5.2 and it would slowly rise to 6.0 by the time they needed the nutes changed. Every change I would see a explosion of growth (they were anticipating the nutes imo) By doing this I felt like I wasn't over feeding them but more so like I would feed a pet; you don't just leave the bowl filled because your pet can gorge until its sick. By limiting my ppm I was limiting what the plants would eat, boy do they love that! Now I am at the point where I'm trying to figure out how much to limit each strain so that it starts to yellow right at harvest, this way I feel like I wouldn't have to flush since there will already be no build up. Some blue dream is at 200ppm right now, purple haze is at 40 (touchy girl) Great White Shark is at 110, ultra sour is at 80, everyone looks happy but the blue dream did get some spots from a 300ppm exposure. Going on 8yrs exp and I'm still unsure if I even know what I'm doing, I do know one thing for sure though and that is I am producing some fire and saving a rack of money while doing it. Low ppm has never ruined anything but high ppm has cost me whole grows, so for now I'll stick with the low ppm.
 
I once asked a medicinal grower what his secret was and he told me you just let the plants do all the work for you. It took be a while to figure out what he meant by that and for some reason he refused to elaborate. I will now use that as my motto. Sorry I know I write a lot but that's because there is a lot going on in my head, it all just pours out when writing.
 
If you don't hear from me for a while its because the nute companys kidnapped me.
 
Currently I use Black Label Pure Essentials. I like them because they don't try to sell you 100 bottles and their performance is comparable to some of the top names. I have used GH Flora Nova, Techna Flora BC nutes, Dynagro, Advanced Nutrients Connoisseur, House & garden (I prefer not to use PGR's), the Pure Essentials, and ALL of the additives in between. I now have a useless arsenal. Anyone want some calmag additives or carb enhancers for cheap? lol. I'm torn between the Connoisseur (made great quality meds, hard to use, received two batches with precipitate) or the Pure essentials (which lacks some ingredients the conni has). They seem to preform similar, as did the H&G to those two. Either way I know I wont ever be using a calmag additive or a carbohydrate enhancer (both proven bs in my book) I had some of the best resin production and healthiest plants with out those two products.
 
Crap I did it again, I wrote a book. I think one day I will for real.

 

 
What is your temperature?

 

Better late than never...
 
I've been using H&G nutrients for a year now, a good part of their nutrient line at first (starterkit), now just AB and dripclean.
 
To anwer your question, your ppm values are way too low.
 
Most charts don't show the PPM, but the H&G UK site charts show the EC, which you can easily convert to your ppm. In my experience (for 6 out of 8 different strains since) those values are fairly accurate, especially if you don't include shooting powder and pk13/14 overdose (which those people you refer to with 1000pppm+ probably do).
 
For clones I use 300ppm, early veg 400ppm, which then goes up to 800-ish during transition, peaks up to 1000 during flowering, dropping back slowly over the last 2-3 weeks till it's back at 300 and then just tap (which is 160ppm in my case) for the last 2-3 days. And that's all below the sweetspots where nutes and water uptake is balanced.

 

 
 
I'd like to see your 1000ppm DWC grow with H&G. Any pics?

 

I use flooded tubes instead of a regular DWC, but yeah, I got hundreds of pics spread out over several journals on the interweb. I'd be happy to upload a few, not sure exactly what you are looking for though, big bud shots? pic of my hanna ppm meter, or my milwakee EC meter? Google Sativied's Indoor Garden. Actually, there are some pics of previous grows in my journal and albums here at GC too.

Like I said, "peaks up to". Doesn't make it a 1000ppm grow... Currently 790ppm (and dropping overnight to 740), day 21 12/12, see sig. The numbers I mentioned aren't nearly as high as you seem to think and again below the sweetspot and below the level recommended by H&G.


Edit: some pics from my first grow with H&G, Liberty Haze plants and 1 Kolossus.
http://forum.grasscity.com/gallery/album/5400-liberty-haze/
I had to chop this one out of the tube:


The main thing I don't like about H&G is the high amount of N in their line. Not as much in AB but in the additives, which is why I'm doing a round of just AB (and maybe some Top Booster of which I got a bit left).

http://www.ukhouseandgarden.co.uk/calculator.asp See the EC of the base nutrients. That's just the AB and already goes up to 900 ppm (1.8EC). I'm on the low end of their ranges (1.58ec, 790ppm), no additives.

 

Stalks don't tell me much. Pictures about two weeks before harvest will tell me the most about a plants life and the growers ability. I found what I was looking for right here. This is one of your H&G grows of high ppm, no?
 
It looks good but I'm seeing some burn, that's all. Burned leaves at the top would signify to me that there's probably not many healthy ones at the bottom either. I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong, just that it can be better.  I know what H&G recommends, I know what every company recommends, I know that they know your plants ability to adjust to to its environment. I also know that I ran H&G at 500-800ppm also when I started using them but I kept encountering a minimal burn and common leaf curl that I was not satisfied with (being a perfectionist can be difficult to live with) Yes my ppm was dropping also, which signifies that I'd be under the so called 'sweet spot'. Now for some reason I get a stable ph and ppm with ultra low ppm, normally 150-250ppm gives me the most stability in my system. I think what you think is from high N is just from high nutes alone. I use to think the same thing until I ran a ultra low ppm. Don't get me wrong; I am not dissing your grow, it looks good so kudos on that. Some nice genetics in there my friend. One love.

 

It seems it's you who's getting me wrong. You almost seem to be offended because of my reply so let me put this clearly: I haven't even read your replies (I love long posts but paragraphs are mandatory). I was just answering the OPs question based on my experience with 8 different strains and extensive research including talking with dozens of growers who use H&G at the recommend much higher ratios.
 
2weeks before harvest is not a 1000ppm point, which was the context, but I pull nearly 1gpw from 600 watt on 3x4' of the best quality I smoked in 2 decades (while I go to Amsterdam every 6 weeks or so), so forgive me if I don't care about your valuation or judgement of my grower's abilities. My previous grows are in journals with weekly pics and more, but obviously it doesn't matter what pic I show as you clearly made up your mind beforehand and operate solely on confirmation bias. Doesn't help me, doesn't help the OP.
 

Well then you're wrong as it's clearly from the high N that results from the Multizym and the Bud XL (both 4-0-1, Bud XL is for last 3 weeks...). Rather than knowing what "every" nutrient manufacturer recommends you should be looking at the ingredients and ratios of the base nutrients + additives used.
 

Rather than starting a pointless discussion I suggest getting of your high horse and read my journal(s) cause 150-250ppm is just ridiculous low for hydroponics. Actually, my tap water is already 165 ppm..., my clones are on at least 300ppm. Google House and Garden ppm chart or similar and see the many many growers who are around my ppm levels and try to find one that runs on 150-250ppm... Are you trolling...? You're the one making an absurd claim, hundreds of growers use the same ppms and higher than I do. Why shift the burden of proof to me? Let's see that 150-250ppm grow...

 

Not trolling, not offended, I have been doing this for about 8 yrs now so I think I know what I'm doing at this point.
 
Start with 0ppm water to run such low values...duh
 
I speak from experience, not from reading info, such as yourself.
 
I will not let this guy get bad info like I did and go back to burning his plants.
 
You already read where he says he has success with the low values so why would you try to disturb that?
 
Do you want other growers that run this low? They have all left from ignorant people like yourself.
 
Search grower name Earls or search Earls space shuttle grow.
 
Read all of his posts and you will learn he knows his stuff.
 
I saw a great H&G grow of his running on 200ppm, so shove it dog.
 
He is who gave me my info and then I applied it and it worked.
 
I don't make this stuff up out of thin air.
 
And btw the proof is in the pudding... your plants are burned
 
Keep shooting for that perfectly green foliage before you start to flush.
 
Yield or 1gram per watt is good genetics, combined with proper lighting, and good space usage, not ppm!
 
I go for quality, not yield... more plants of higher quality.
 
How is that for paragraphs? Sorry that you can't read with out double spacing or something... You need to do the reading sonny, even if it's not spaced how you like it. You'll be surprised what you can learn. I know I was.
 
Again, not trolling, I have much better things I should be doing right now...Just one love. mj
 
Also I tried to say I'm not dissing what you're doing. Sorry you were offended.

 

@[member="Sativied"] @[member="bizie"]
You guys should do a side by side comparison of decently similar strains - if possible.. I find it hard to believe that 150-200 ppm will even be HALF as productive as the average 750+ppm.. 
lol we've already had this discussion Biz, so in order to keep the peace I say - to each his own  ... 
With that being said Biz: perhaps you hit them with too high of a tds level too soon when you tried running the higher numbers?.. I say that because I did this in the past and they never accepted the higher doses after that.. 
 
I currently run 650ppm (.5 conversion) without a SPECK of burn (and still, 650 is LOW compared to the average).. If you're interested in pics send me a PM

 

Since you seem to think that that one picture is "proof in the pudding" of any of your assumptions or "doing this for 8 years" is a valid argument than you're obviously not the type of grower I'm even interested in having a debate with and this is obviously going nowhere constructive... ah what the heck, as long as nobody gets offended:
 
My setup is actually originally inspired by Earl's setup (duh?). I've read his 'fun' threads. Growing cannabis on hydroponics has come a long way since. I prefer to read more authorative resources than forums though, like my plants, but in any case there's really so much better and more info available than Earl's threads by now. Obviously you have no idea what I have and haven't read, but I think you should take your own advice to do some reading and update what you think you know.
 
That first pic in which you see 'nute burn', is from my first hydro run and my first run with H&G (coming from organics soil, soil with mineral nutes before that). I got a dead cheap deal on the starterkit which contains AB, Mutlizym, Bud XL, Drip Clean, Magic Green, Root Excelurator, Top Booster (PK 13/14), and Top Shooter (even more PK overdose).
 
Now let me say first that I'm not a big fan of any additives and especially not high PK bloom/stim/shooter/hardener etc. But, since I had it all, I used it all. That pic is from harvest time after 12 weeks and having survived the Shooting Powder (even though I used little). As I mentioned in my current journal, that round I actually was above the sweetspot at first. It provided the convenience of having to top off only with tap water (lowering the raised ppm, increasing the ph). That actually worked out fine if I topped off everyday to prevent it from climbing too fast and except for the Kolossus (had 1 Kol, 5 Liberty Haze), as I mentioned 6 out 8 strains (the Chunk in my current run doesn't like as much as the ICE wants for example).
 
Until I started using Top booster/shooting powder. The latter had a bit of a bad rep here (in NL) since it became available, it'll either kill your plants or start foxtailing like crazy. But again, since I had it, I used it. Nothing dramatic though, and in no way any scientific factual proof of any supposed overfeeding by staying around the sweet spot many weeks before it. I smoke Liberty Haze at Barney's Coffeeshop in the volcanos occassionally and I assure you mine tasted and smelled way better. The end result (green harvest) was quite the blasphemy in the local dutch forums (where people believe in a yellow harvest).
 
Previous round I decided to reduce the use of additives to a minimum. In particular very little Multizym (high on N), very little Bud XL, no Shooting Powder, and just 2 days of PK13/14 in the rez. This round I decided to ditch the Multizym and Bud XL entirely, and use AB and the last bit of root excel I got left.
 

I agree. Not opposed to N in nutes during flowering, just the high level in the H&G line. You're barking up the wrong tree in so many ways, 'sonny'.
 
Skywalker Kush, with 1 budsite of Chocolate Fondue. Actually these are the parents of a plant I got in my closet now.

 
Skywalker Kush again:

 

I must be good at picking strains then. I would have and have several times on the internet, put it slightly differently: Yield depends primarily on the strain, lighting and space, and not the amount of nutrients. Minor difference in words, major difference in accuracy. I never claimed I get 1gpw because of my ppm. I'm fully aware plants don't eat by create food for all other living beings and to do so require essential elements in a balanced ratio, which they take up as they please, not as dictated by the grower - are you? Cause if you were you wouldn't be making these absurd claims (it's impossible to prevent nutrient imbalance with that low ppms and mature plants).
 
It's almost ironic, this discussion. I'm purposly underfeeding my hempy plants with the primary intention of showing a local grower I know that he really doesn't need to use such high ppms (i.e. those recommended by nutrient companies) and his plants didn't die from a lack of nutes. My hempies are currently at 800ppm in, 550-600 ppm drain.
 
I seriously think your system needs an update or you need to recalibrate your meters. One of the main benefits of hydroponics is the control of the roots zone with in turn allows for faster grow rates, which require more nutes (I give my plants what they ask).
 
Maybe post that 150-250ppm grow rather than referring to outdated topics from Earl? (Is that really where you base your unrealistic claims on?) It is a simple fact that if I were to give that low ppms to my plants in my setup (8 strains, 5 breeders, 1 own cross), my plants would show deficiencies within days. For example, I was a bit in a rush earlier today. Topped off without adding nutes, ppm was at 720 when I left, and at 690 when I came back 3 hours later. I am sure you can imagine what happens if I were to use even lower ppms.
 
Since I love posting pics so much:
 
SK in front, CF in the back:

 
From a single fat stalk CF plant:

 
 
 
skywalker kush:

 
Chocolate Fondue:

 
More CF:

 
That's what providing an optimal environment and provinding the nutes the plants can take (which is lower than the nutrient company claims) results in. If you can get similar results with 150-250 ppm then I want to smoke what you are smoking because it's simply impossible unless you have an extremely large rez or refresh every hour. That ppm is barely enough to fit in enough mg/l for Ca and Mg alone... 
 
"I'd like to see your 150-250 ppm grow. Got pics?"

 

Your plants are very dark green with curling leaves this early in flower- from high nutes!! This early in flower they look good but I'm sure you'll be getting some spots soon. But again, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that if you're happy. You do you and imma do me but don't tell someone they're not right especially when you have no experience with it. I was having this argument with a GC member private stalk when he told me to never go above 500ppm in a dwc and that was one year ago and I was just like you. I had to see just how low I could go and the numbers seem to be almost irrelevant. Man do I feel ignorant now. Now I will stand by the 'never go above 500ppm' words of private stalk.
 
Glad to see you do seem like a knowledgeable grower. But you seem to think Amsterdam or coffee shops make you more knowledgeable, I find that funny. I also used every additive H&G had to offer when I used the company. They know what they are doing with their products, I have a feeling it's you that is misapplying them. Sorry, please take no offense.
 
Whenever I talk to someone like you on here I always go back to burning my plants...not this time bro.
 
Change out your nutes more often to run such low ppm's. I'm not bullshitting anyone on here. Ppm or electric conductivity has very little to do with the availability of nutrients. Plants grow faster with low ppm and water holds more dissolved oxygen at low ppm. Nutes uptake better by plants when ran at lower ppm's, SPECIFICALLY CALCIUM which is the transporter. I did also read that before I applied it, as with everything else; not a fabrication. So your not enough ppm for the required ca and mag is more internet mumbo jumbo. bsbsbsbsbsbs and proven bs in my book. First try to disprove the bs you read on the internet and then do some side by side comparisons of a lower ppm ran grow and then a high. You will be more impressed with the low ppm with better quality. Somehow the plant always finds the nutes in my system, no matter the ppm, I must just have good genetics ;-) If ppm is too low it just drops; the further it is off, the faster it changes.
 
You cant take plants that are use to higher ppm's and then run them low in flower, they need ran low their whole life.
 
I really don't have time for a dick comparison, I was just trying to not let someone get misinformed like I had been. Just know that I have had quarter pound (trimmed and dried product) off 3ft plants that ran at 100ppm on a calibrated hanna HI98129. That's each plant having a quarter pound, with 4 plants under one 600watt light. (I could fit 6 but I have poor space management) So theoretically I could get 672 grams with that strain under a 600 watt light and that would be on low ppm Feel free to look through some of my pics or search whatever but I have beautiful pics on here also and of plants that are much later in flower.
 
It's his decision if he wants to go back to burning his plants or continue with what he is doing, which is working for him...remember??
 
This thread was to help someone that ran low ppm and was unsure about it. Not for a dick comparison.
 
You use your space way better then I do. I need to do better space management. Kudos on that sir.
 
Again, I'm sorry I offended you. My wife always tells me I'm to harsh with my words of honesty.  Bizie is out of this thread- Dick comparison over. I have no more time to argue over what I know is true.
 
OP- I hope that helped to clear some things up.

 

@[member="bizie"] - I agree, he does have some curl, but I will say this: those girls are ABSOLUTELY beautiful, and the man sure as hell knows what he's doing from the looks of it.. To each his own!       

 

I did wonder while writing that post if I really had to point out those classic signs of high N  in especially the CH in the back.  And that's about a month later in the cycle than "this early in flower" It's the initial stretch (too much Nnnnnnn during transition) that makes them look less fat (journals with same pics and dates are online...). I have multiple strains in my tubes every run, and from seed so always a lot of variation and always one that gets too much and one that doesn't get enough. I always lighten/burn the tips of some of them which is largely because of messing with ratios and not because of using too high ppms (which I most certainly don't). Even in my current run (chunk needs far less than Ice and Late Night). As I mentioned earlier the ratios are much more important than the actually PPM value. Easily illustrated by feeding a large amount of certain additives while lowering the overall PPM.
 
If you are still sure you aren't trolling, you may want to read a little about nutrient uptake, what that sweetspot really means, what hydroponics is all about and why it is so popular to provide food for the ever growing population on the planet (increased root zone control allowing for increased nutrient uptake which in turn results in faster vegging, which in turn results in more cycles a year). By itself that fat stalk didn't mean much, it's the ridicuous short veg time and huge quantity high quality buds it produced that do. A high nutrient uptake (without overfeeding) is also an important trait on which breeders not only select but also domesticated the now so popular strains.
 

What dick comparisson? You haven't even showed me yours while I've given you more angles of mine than your comfortable with. You just rehashed some info you read/heard, is don't see any comparisson. And no offense taken. At most annoyed by your lack of reasoning and poor discussion abilities but don't let that bother you.
 
You make absurd claims about unrealistic ppms and seem to think that finding flaws in my plants is any valid argument for using the low ppms you suggest instead of using the lower than recommended and lower than the sweetspot values I use. That's as logic as that the OP should take your advice because you know it's true (worst argument ever, fits better in a religion forum). It's called shifting the burden of proof as I mentioned earlier, may want to look into that, will make you a better grower. I assume the OP is smart enough to think for himself and look at the facts (or simply google DWC ppm chart and compare those of the many nutrient companies to the many many many growers who use realistic ppms and 'get' hydroponics).
 
It's not what you don't know it's what you think you know that isn't really so. If you ever manage to grow high quality and decent quantity mj on 150-250ppm without an absurd size rez or refreshing absurdly often or vegging for an inefficient and unnecessary long time than let me know cause I'm going to nominate you for the Nobel prize as you solved one of the world's worst polution problems.
 
Yes, no pics this time.

 

 
I'd be more interested in seeing these < 100 ppm grows. But now you're saying it's < 500 ppm? Every time you mention it the ppm is higher than the last?
If I feed less than recommended amounts I also see problems within a couple of days. I could make it to harvest with a low ppm grow but it would still be an unhealthy plant.
What we're saying is show us some pics!
 
Edit : Found some pics... Now I know what he means by spots. 
http://static.grscty.com/uploads/monthly_12_2012/post-577263-13688314549154.jpg
http://static.grscty.com/uploads/monthly_12_2012/post-577263-13688314553853.jpg