Historical White Privilege/Culture & Systemic Racism Collide with 21st Century Equality

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ChiefRunningPhist, Aug 31, 2020.

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  1. Let me simplify it for you. Life is about choice and chance. Not much you can do about chance so make the best choices possible.

    Collective happiness? What a farce! Individual freedom ensures we define our lives within the social structures we live. The problem that plagues most Marxists is that they may have read our constitution they just don't grasp the words. They very first words of the preamble negates much of what they hope to destroy. "We the people of the the United States in order to form a more perfect union..."
    For us Americans it is simple, we know we were imperfect from the start and strive to more perfection that has a goal to make individual freedoms worth promoting. Got to stand up against tribalistic society, nothing go comes from tribalism.
     
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  2. #1862 ChiefRunningPhist, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
    I think we're going in circles here. Those who are less supportive of systemic reform are likely to balance their position about the individual POV, which completely has merit, though its not an "either-or" imo ( rather its a combo of both), and also not what the state has power to control. For example, when you blame a portion of it on the declining nuclear family model you might not be wrong, and I think there's validity to that, though I think the fact that minority communities are locked up at greater rates compared to the rest of America is significant. The implementation and entire reason for the drug war to begin with is part of policy and agenda that has resulted in a largely prejudicial and oppressive systemic structure/reality. When you lock up mom and/or dad for something white suburbanites aren't locked up for (at the same rate) you're going to see a reduction of the nuclear family within one group over another. Does this mean one group values the family structure more than another? Maybe, but its also highly likely that the unequal treatment is influencing. When agenda is to stagnate wages or to oppose wage increases, or to deny/ignore the income inequality, or to oppose subsidised healthcare, ect ect, these stances and agendas will impact the nuclear family of groups with lower socioeconomic standing (ie the groups we have been historically discriminating and segrating against to push them into this standing, anytime they historically succeded they were destroyed, Tulsa, Rosewood, ect) If you have to work multiple jobs because you're now a single parent household you're going to be home less supervising your kids, going to be home less helping your kids with homework, so kids begin to slide and slip between cracks, puts more responsibility on the state to raise the kids (which is less than optimal), mental health issues which plague people in communities of greater despair due to the realities that life affords becomes much harder to pay for or seek out ect. If you're not doing well in school you will have less of a chance to get a higher education or transcend slave labor. Yes, make the right choices and do all you can, but when looking at it through the individual POV hopefully you can see that policy and agenda and macro pressures have a huge impact on the overall success of a group (and thus the individual by default). I'm not trying to say that every failure can be blamed purely on systemic oppression, a good portion of it is individual as well, but my vote will only impact the systemic structure despite any validity to the personal responsibility or ideological side of it. Dems and republicans both have contributed to the systemic oppression. Clinton was pretty pro law enforcement in the 90s and campaigned on 100K more cops if you remember, and both sides have members that stall on MJ reform or rescheduling ect. Currently the danger is coming more so from the right imo but the left aren't blameless by any means. Both sides have agendas which influence the systemic structure.
     
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  3. My previous points were not clear. I was pointing out where does the blame end and we focus in results.

    You mentioned mental health, it is a big deal. How to provide access for all that need it? Should we create incentives for quality health care locate to poor areas?

    Employment? This is where infrastructure efforts could pay off. Hate the last President but he figured out how to get us back to work and minority communities and women benefited the most, highest recorded employment since we started tracking numbers and best numbers in 60 years. Pandemic really set us back, the whole world.

    Want to reduce slave labor, tighten immigration rules and have better work place enforcement.

    Prison is a tough one. Some are just chosing bro be career criminals. In my heart I see with all the energy these guys put into crime that they could become self employed but recidivism is real. The stigma of hiring criminals is not without precedent nor merit. I am not big on the ideas of helping repeat offenders and at some point failure is what an offender expects and accepts.

    I am a firm believer that local government should tax their localities on the goals they want to achieve. The federal government is woefully inefficient and really out of touch with the variances of community needs. Big projects for federal government and assistance to local cities and rural areas that have a valid and necessary need.
     
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  4. #1864 ChiefRunningPhist, Jun 11, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
    Many things I align with in this post.

    A couple points...
    I disliked trump as well though am less inclined to give credit to him over a falling historical trend bc I'm not sure what new policies or agendas he championed that influenced the metric in the way he's being credited (does he get credit for the declining trend before he took office? What did he do differently to continue the trend?)?
    5_8_2020_jobs_sub.png
    I also think employment is important but mostly because of the opportunitues it traditionally provided, whereas to be employed today doesn't provide the same security ect, and thus my income inequality and wage rates and healthcare comments. If the American labor class could get by on the poor wages they are paid currently, and there wasn't mass income/wealth inequality, then I wouldn't advocate for subsidized healthcare or increased wages ect, but over time its gotten so lopsided that something has to be done to right the balance again. If capitalism wants to create a caste system then democracy needs to intervene. There are examples of people achieving class mobility but imo the system facilitates an unnecessarily uphill battle to those that are of lower socioeconomic standing while selecting and enabling those that aren't. If its possible I'd like to remove uneccessary barriers and burdens that the state has facilitated on lower status groups (either by acts of intention or coicendence).

    We could tighten immigration but the data says that immigrants actually pay more in than they take out, so they are an added benefit from a fiscal POV, though ultimately, the data does not show a decrease in native employment or wage rates stemming from immigration illegal or otherwise. Imo when you look at the gross income inequality and/or wealth gap, it's quite clear that immigration isn't the issue that's currently holding Americans back.
    https://www.cato.org/blog/immigrations-real-impact-wages-employment
    (The CATO Institute used to be called the Charles Koch Foundation, it's right leaning)

    Due to the lack of even distribution I'm not against taxing federally to help locally, but I agree that there is much waste and it doesn't have the same incentive to be efficient like the private side does (though the benefit gained from the efficiency of the private side is traditionally only distributed amoungst the ownership class, so perhaps offsetting to some degree).

    Absolutely some are just choosing to be career criminals. Even if everything were completely "fair" or non oppressive, you're still going to have these folks. That's why I don't advocate for all cops to go, or all jails to be shut down. There will always be some element of anti-social behaviour but I'd like to do what we can to remove any state directed catalysts in an effort to make that portion as small as possible. Instead of only spending money on the reactions or outbursts/policing/incarceration ect, start (or stop) spending money to mitigate the state influenced causes as well.

    My views are evolving and over time they will change, perhaps even drastically and I think I see where you're coming from because imo (correct me if I'm wrong) it's not so distant from my POV. I dislike tribalism as well and don't think anyone should follow anyone blindly, though when I look at the biggest issues in America today I see 1 tribes agenda coicendentally standing closer to my POV than another. I think 1 tribes agenda is pretty much completely bad for America and I say this not out of tribal affiliation but from observation. That's why you see me pushing the anti GOP slant. I'm not blindly pro dem (despite the fact that their agenda currently aligns with my POV, somewhat mostly), but I am anti the current GOP agenda. Its not out of tribalism, it's issue related. I got lots to say about the establishment left (look up my commentary when Bernie was running), and the uber woke ect, but they aren't the immediate threat to democracy and equality ect that the right currently is imo. We're all victims of the 2 party circumstance, our reality is that our choices are red or blue. Fuck tribalism but its also maybe what our choices have been stripped down to?
     
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  5. fwiw @ChiefRunningPhist i find your thoughts as expressed very coherent. i'm glad you made no inference to skin color when referencing people of poor means. your "macro social pressures" argument makes sense or at least i understand the salient points you're making. same for you @Pro GMO 2.

    the collegiate tone of both your arguments is pleasurable to read.
     
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  6. I agree 110%. It’s enjoyable reading that isn't either filled with some kind of hate or totally biased with a Red or Blue party. It really bugs me as we are all Americans (most anyhow) wnd have somehow been dragged into this horrible and hateful 2 party system that does nothing but pit brother against brother.

    Thanks guys.

    j
     
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  7. #1868 ChiefRunningPhist, Jun 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
    I hope I'm not giving off the insinuation that racism has not been the very historical and motivational basis responsible for many of the observed disproportionalities evident today. Its not to say that things haven't gotten better but its not been instant or easily acquired or without a great effort met by a strong opposition. Citizens/culture have become less openly racist but there are factions that aren't ready to give up supremacist ideology and work to obstruct the progressive reform today.

    Imo its become less about race and more about the greedy financial side of things but the current possible tactics used to margenalize based on skin color, compared to the current tactics used to margenalize based on lower socioeconomic standing, are one in the same (due to the current disproportionalities in racial composition of the group resulting from the history).

    Due to the directly racist historical oppression (denied suffrage, illegal to read/write, wage discrimination, 3/5ths compromise, ect) the black and brown groups occupied a lower socioeconomic standing. As time and public perception progressed and a greater % of the labor class was able to vote, openly racist laws, positions, and politicians were no longer popular at the ballot box, and the racist factions that wanted to maintain power through state directed oppression had to disrupt these targeted groups by legislation using language with other defining characteristics aside from skin color, had to target in ways that wouldn't be as obvious so they wouldn't be negatively impacted at the ballot box. In the past they directly kept the minority down and made sure he was poor, kept illiterate, ect, because of this, when it was time they needed a new, less direct, less openly racist way to maintain the power imbalance, enacting policy meant to disrupt based on socioeconomic status was a convenient alternative, and imo the additional inclusion of people outside of darker skin color was accepted because they were never really included either, were second class citizens as well (despite the fact that they were not racially discriminated against), and also (imo) the next group most likely to push for change. So this resulted in the attempted margenalization of the lower socioeconomic standing taking on more of a racial motivation, and has become viewed at times as synonymous with margenalization of people of certain races or certain skin color. Imo, over time, the motivations have morphed to be based mostly on greed as opposed to racial superiority, but the undebatable history is there, and due to the evolution of the historical margenalization attempt, the tactics currently used to target either group end up being essentially the same or at least very similar.

    Yes we can talk on the basis of the broader socioeconomic characteristics but it can be viewed as offensive to dismiss the racist/racial influences and implications and historical motivations that facilitated and continue to perpetuate the current conditions. No, today black people are not the only ones effected by the inequalities which the oppressive policies produce, but they are disproportionately effected and have been historically and purposefully targeted and much of the current oppressive structure is lingering remnants of a more racially motivated margenalization effort (perhaps one example is heirs property laws ect). I'm not going to take issue with the way someone feels about a proposition given certain context. I'm not going to deny that there may be racist agendas and/or motivations for policy that certain ethnicities are impacted by in disproportionate ways, but I'm also not going to profess that all advocates or motivations of policy that impact disproportionately are rooted in racism, nor will I say that all currently oppressive structure or laws are founded on racism. Some is merely coicendental and some is probably just hard to avoid. Though I'll reaffirm that much, imo, truly is based on an effort to maintain a lopsided status quo regardless the sales pitch given and imo whether the motivation is racial or financial has less of an influence on the compositional makeup of the impacted group (ie the same people are being impacted).

    Its still tender and if the discriminated class is soar I don't think it's my place to take issue. I think some of it is warranted given the reality we see today. Ive never felt guilty, but I do sympathize with the legitamately discriminated and marginalized groups.
     
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  8. The media might be why you don't see it. It is not the biased news you get only affecting the issues you believe it is the news you don't get that worries me. My Dad actually believes Trump made fun of a reporter's disability. The press made it their duty to destroy the monster they made.

    Why don't you know what policies President Trump made to affect economic polices? Why so hard to give credit where it is due? If we say it was Obama's fault for a good economy are we saying it is really Bush's economy who became the fall guy for everything? Have you noticed the inflation?

    I would love to see a coalition government that really supported their constituents instead of party programs.
     
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  9. i'm not trying to dismiss the notion of systemic racism. hell man, i've felt the impact of racism so i know the concept is alive and well in the 21st century and i can certainly see the racist attitudes of all color skin tones represented herein these threads. we all know racism is real and racism is bi-directional even if "we" dont want to admit to it.

    tbh, i think poor white people just simply accept their lot in life and dont kick up a lot of dust complaining about their situation. i know plenty of poor, white people so i speak from a personal pov, and the ones I've met that dont accept their lot in life move forward and try to improve it. i know POC do the same thing so it's not "whiteness" that motivates them, rather, it's just a simple desire to improve their situation and/or achieve some self-assigned goal.

    you know at some point we learn to work with the hand we were dealt or we curl up and die. it's individual choice at the end of discussion. yes, there's systemic, bi-directional racism in this country and probably every other country on the planet. :confused_2: what do we do? how do we end racism when it seems all that "we" do is talk about it?
     
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  10. Accountability for bad behaviour by all. Take the pride away from your color, I personally care about and am interested in other cultures but not their skin color, that beauty is only skin deep.
     
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  11. i agree even if you're dissing on me. i have no issues with people in general and i'm out and about everyday. i actually go out of my way to be nice simply because we never know what kind of life issues the person we're interacting with may be going through. a kind word, a smile, a simple thank you may be all that person needs to get them through "right now". make sense?

    but pretending racism doesn't exist is naive based on my personal life experiences
     
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  12. How am I dissing you? Wasn't trying. Racism ,was,is and always will be,imo. I think america should make new holidays celebrating different cultures learning about other cultures. Leave the colors out.
     
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  13. Isn’t every day some kind of holiday already? Take a look at this list just for kicks dude - lol

    Fun Holidays - Funny, Random & Weird Holidays

    J
     
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    • Funny Funny x 3
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  14. [​IMG]
    Can you thread one without asking google?
    LOL

    BNW
     
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  15. just on a personal level when i try to draw the attention of someone to a person i always first attempt, "see the woman, see the man, see the teenager", etc. i leave skin tone out of it. i always try my best in the real world to just see the person.

    i'm happy to say the highly diverse and multi-cultural population where i live and anywhere located an hours drive in any direction from where i currently sit all get along just fine. we did have a drug related murder last year but there was also a woman involved in a love triangle associated with it. go figger :rolleyes:

    we are a true melting pot of diversity here and everyone mingles well.
     
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  16. The worlds going to shit
    Because white privilege ya know


    IMG_6032.JPG
    Self inflicted racism


    Sent from see through door in another dimension
     
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  17. Hundreds of alleged looters and rioters busted last year in protests over George Floyd’s murder by police have had their charges dropped, according to NYPD data — figures ripped as “disgusting” by a local business owner.

    In The Bronx — which saw fires in the street and mass looting in June 2020 — more than 60 percent of arrestees have had charges dropped, according to the investigation by NBC New York.

    Seventy-three of the 118 people arrested in the borough had their cases shelved altogether, another 19 were convicted on lesser counts like trespassing, which carries no jail time, the report said.

    Eighteen cases remain open, with NBC not accounting for the other eight arrests.

    “Those numbers, to be honest with you, is disgusting,” Jessica Betancourt, who owns a Bronx eyeglass store that was looted and is vice president of a local merchants association, told NBC. “I was in total shock that everything is being brushed off to the side.
    In Manhattan — where looters ran rampant across Soho and Midtown— 222 of those arrested had their cases completely dropped, while 73 got lesser counts.

    Hundreds of NYC rioters, looters have charges dropped

    Long live America!

    j
     
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