Jesus will ask me what I said about his mother? I dunno. I called her a virgin? I used to think everybody's religion was right, and everybody elses religion is wrong. And I still think everybody who wants to share their religion with you, don't necessarily want you to share yours with them. Then I started reading the Bible myself. Not cherry picking, but reading into the story and history. Completely different book when minus the cherry picking. Argue there is no God till your hearts content. You're more than welcome to do so. Nobody can stop you. I'm not here to argue God. I don't have any need. Neither does God.
Ok Norse but just for a bit. lol Ron, 3/4 of all Catholics do not believe in the virgin birth, the Immaculate Conception and that she is Truly the Mother of God. And those 3 dogmas are what you must believe concerning Her. Fatima did happen and has been proven, scientifically to have happened and is real, just as our Lady of Guadalupe has been proven real and scientifically solid. However, you are not required to believe it or honour it or seek its message. Her message is seek my Son, He is the Way. Jesus, is 100% man and 100% God, He is the sacrifice and bridge to Heaven. Many of the first desenters claimed he was only a man or only God or just a nice guy that liked to stir the shit. He was none of this, and yet all of this. People say why does God need a sacrifice, like the jews, who were required to do a bloody splitting of the offering which was required by The LAW? God does not get a boner at the sign of blood, he requires you to sacrifice for love, which we all do in varying degrees everyday. By giving of our time, knowledge, money, worship, compassion, first to God, then our wifes, next the children of that holy union, immediate family, then even the fucked up ones in the middle east who dwell on cutting off heads. They deserve our mercy, which for me is straight up impossible for now, let's just say I'm not there yet. God doesn't need your sacrifice, to become stronger or to fulfill His plan, God can make something out of nothing and has always been and is omnipotent. I need to step out, I have prayer group and exposition of the Blessed Sacrament.
I have to correct something. There are 4 dogmas that must be believed and I forgot one, that is the Assumption. I guess I used the wrong word Ron. I used argue and maybe I should have used debate. Ron I have no desire to prove or argue that, there is no God with the Bible. But I can, by using the Bible, hence the multitude of churches and multitude of doctrines and missions statements of the non-dom. I found many Catholic teachings in Rons statements, which intrigued me and I read the whole thread, mission accomplished OP. It crossed my mind, that if my memory serves me right, Ron is a fisherman? Captain of a vessel? I remember a pirates flag avatar? Might be another person, but I deduced that sea going fishermen are notoriously Catholic. Here nor there. I am not here to prostilatisze and convert or smash your understanding of God (Norse). There has not been a single thing posted here that I have not considered myself. I just want to plant seeds to grow in the spring... not the arab spring because that's the time to fight, not to grow spiritually. Let me share what the Bible says about the Bible. The vernacular right? lol. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be. Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV - Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction ... are false: and furthermore, to correct evil manners, and to establish good. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for ... that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work (why if works don't help get you to heaven?). ... Those true to the Scriptures cannot escape this duty. What scriptures? The new testament hadn't even been written yet? Now who declared which books are in the Bible and which are divinely inspired? Luther? King James? Rick Warren? Did not that person say nothing will be added or taken away? In what year? Hell awaits. Jerry is right, whos book is it and who has the authority to teach and explain the scriptures. I remember someone running alongside a chariot explaining the scriptures from a position of authority and knowledge? Acts? Anyways, not here to beat up on anyone, just to make you question, to give you food for thought. Let's get busy and hear each other and respond to these thought provoking question and answers from our way of seeing things and how we came to this conclusion. Peace.
Nope. Not at all. I put your name there so you might not think I am trying to take your belief in God from that, into a denomination/ religion. I know everybody's is on a different path and I don't want to hurt you in anyway
I didn't think so but after rereading it several times I couldn't figure out why my name was there, I thought maybe you were referring to Norse gods or something lol. Yea I definitely don't have a religion.
Reading reading reading, said to myself where the hell is this coming from? The gospel of thomas? Did not make the cut, huh? Its called predestination, just another error that was put down in the first century and obviously still going strong with the haters. Right Norse, you do understand science... tips the fedora. Science is all about natural law and the observation of it. According to other folks here, science disproves the exists of god. lol. Louis Pasteur the brilliant scientist prayed a rosary everyday and Mass on Sundays... I guess he was too brainwashed to drop his superstitious ways. It is not like a scientist, created something out of nothing, they used critical thinking to figure out what to look for. Like 13 amp said, There is no science to explain the supernatural, it exists outside of creation which makes science useless concerning it. I chuckle at people who think they are too smart to believe and that by removing belief in god it would send the human race out of the dark ages and into udder bliss. [ True on that? I have a photographic memory... that never develops You answered your own question. The creation of all things and having always existed is an example of the supernatural.Try and get your head around this, it is unexplainable. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, I'm just saying. No beginning and no end. WTH?
Is papa nick considered a norse god? I have a couple of Viking friends and I've only talked to one of them about their beliefs. It happened to be at Christmas and he said something like Santa and Papa Nick are very similar. Another thing he said was there are two places or heavens, one for warriors and one for families. And because he is a Ranger, I chimed in saying "you are going to the place of the warrior" (Valhalla). He said no, I want to be with my family. You need to know I was dabbed out of my mind at the time and it is possible that I hallucinated the whole thing.
The Jolly Roger flag is correct. I've never been a fisherman by trade. I was a mechanic for the last 30 years that I could work. I do like to fish as long as I'm catching something. Your experience around Catholics sounds much different than mine. I've never had an intelligent conversation with a Padre. Half of them seem like they hate looking me in the eye, and the other half just look down their nose at me. I'm not sure what to think, and I just shrug it off. I've been around a lot of Catholics and from what I've gathered is that they do believe in the virgin birth, immaculate conception, and petition God through Mary and various long dead saints. (They seem to favor graven images) The majority of catholics I've ever met are Catholic because their mother told them they are. I have come across a few (very few) who have a few canned Bible verses in one hand, and a whole lot of Catholic ritual in the other hand. I just let them talk while they fill my shot glass. Good devout people. Good food, good party. My wife of 27 1/2 years is Mexican and grew up Catholic. And in my past I've had a girlfriend or 2 from Catholic families. I used to do event photo/videography and covered many weddings, quince's, first communions, etc. So I have rubbed elbows with quite a few Catholics, but never met a one who does not believe in the virgin birth. Not arguing, just saying. Different observations? I really just wanted to tell you I'm not a fisherman.
Not sure whats up with all the disrespect, disagreements or red x's, everybody has a rite to their own religion just not sure if it belongs on GC. Thats whats wrong with the world today, most people thinks their way of thinking is the right way, I always try to respect other peoples way of life, i.may not agree with it but i respect the fact that each person has a rite to their own way of life.
Ha ha a Ron... woohoo! I too have a mexican cutie since 1980. She has the perfect mix of testosterone and estrogen in that girl, beautiful, smart as a whip. My wife is amazing. I'd be lost without her. Ron from my point of view as teacher of Catholicism, which I've done a couple of times for last year confirmation class for high school students (also known as the wild bunch) and about 10 years of adult classes for baptism, holy communion, marriage, and confirmation. I know that people do not know their faith, no matter their background or faith. Cradle Catholics are the worst, dumb dumb stupid heads! They are ignorant of the faith they claim, which is sad considering we are talking about an eternity. And yes many priests don't know shit or just choose to teach or propagate error to push their agenda. Hell awaits. Remember, Jesus chose 12 and yet one of them was a devil, that wasn't a mistake, he knew what he was doing. There will always be dissenters and evil inside and outside of the church. But its still the church He started, with all its flaws, which he will never divorce, no matter the circumstances. His words not mine. Graven images? Like a statue, or a crucifix? You are a family man right? Its the devil, he always wants to dance! lol We be in the 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' sub forum? Party on Garth!
Ok, I'm still not sure what you're looking for, but I'm going to try this from a different angle. The Bible "IS" the authority. The very actual words of God himself. The instructions. The blueprint. The manual. Recorded history from the beginning. Yes, it was penned by men over the centuries, but it was written under the influence of one Holy Spirit. They are Gods words and thoughts. The same storyline from page one, all the way to the last page. From Genesis to Revelation, the plot does not change. I am assuming you are much more "well read" than I am. Just going by things you've posted. This brings me to your comment about wanting to know the difference between you and me. Actually, we were created equal and we both put our pants on one leg at a time. This next part you likely won't be too receptive to, but to me it is reality. I tried to read the Bible and it took all of two sentences to put me to sleep. A lot of people can say the same. Once I gave my heart to God, and I'm talking total surrender, in sincere unconditional trust, the Bible became a living document. The words came up off the pages and spoke to me personally. Like a good novel you just can't put down. Over the years the enthusiasm has matured, but the words still jump off the pages. The difference is that finite man cannot understand the spiritual things of God until God shares His Spirit with him. Spiritual things of God are foolishness to man without Spiritual enlightenment. "God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must Worship Him in truth and in spirit." That is what I meant in prior comments that I cannot convince you to believe in the God of the Bible. Spiritual revelation has to come from God. When God shares His Spirit with you, you will begin to understand spiritual things. I am surrounded by Catholics, JW's knocking on my door, siblings who were raised Mormon, ..... I have tried to read their stuff and it puts me to sleep. I have tried to read the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, and what I find is that it mimics 5th century english and it all seems gibberish to me. Why? These books are influenced by a different spirit. The blueprint of a different author. When I try to ask questions, my siblings become defensive, and insist on sending a couple missionaries to my door. But my siblings, elders at their "Ward" (what they refer to as their local place of worship) cannot tell me about their beliefs. But this is another rabbit trail. My point is, man cannot understand the spiritual things of God until God shares His Spirit with Him. This only comes from God. Beyond that, you have man and all his traditions and rituals thinking he's building a bridge to God. That's all I can think of to tell you about what or why. I hope this narrows it down some for you. My foundation, the rock I build my house on, the authority, is the Bible. God's Word, revealed by the Holy Spirit, made possible by the Bridge Himself, the Messiah.
I appreciate that as always. I hope you know that I am not trying to do anything malicious here, maybe you know me well enough to know that or know that I am just a genuinely curious person. I ask this not to trip you up, but hopefully to get an answer that I have been otherwise unable to attain (heck I might have asked it already and forgot...) If you felt God was commanding you to murder someone (as He has commanded of others in the Bible) would you do it? I will explain why I ask so it doesnt sound so crass. If you answer yes, that means Gods spirit or relevation to you is of a higher truth than the Bible which prohibits murder. If you answer no, that means the Bible is your primary truth, which means claiming the Bible is inspired by God doesn't mean much since you ignored his inspiration to you. Again this is not to trip you up or irritate you, this is one of the reasons I could not justify and have never had satisfactory answers to, and not for lack of trying. I have scoured the lectures and debates of the most prominent defenders of the faith. They do a beautiful job at constructing a coherent system and defending it, aside from a few key areas. I wonder, if they grappled with some of these a bit bette r or more honestly, if the faith would appeal to more people? Anyway, if you are tired of the discussion I completely understand and do not expect a reply, if you so choose we can retire to PM or something, I don't want it to seem I am berating you in public for an audience.
I understand and I don't feel threatened in any way. I'm cool with it, I just wish I had better mastery of my own language so I could understand what you're asking so I can explain better. I don't believe God would command me to murder, first of all. Because a house divided against itself will not stand. God is not going to call something sin, then tell me to do it. There are no contradictions in the Bible. And I think that's where this is headed. The contradiction debate. You need to come to terms with the fact that 'killing' is not necessarily always the same as 'murdering'. God created a perfect world. We only have death as the result of Adams sin. Sin and death entered the world through Adam. "The Bible provides many circumstances under which the taking of a life is legally allowed by Scripture. Killing another person in an act of self defense (Exodus 22:2) was permitted with no consequences." It is not sin to protect innocent life. And law and order is ordained by God. You could take a book like War And Peace, pull a sentence from every chapter, and put together a storyline. But how much of it would resemble the author's intentions? I've never seen it put like that before. I'm thinking there may be more than one Bible study in there somewhere. Thank you for that. To spare you the plagiarism, and prevent retyping what's already in print, I'll link you back to AIG. A piece by Roger Patterson. Contradictions: A Time to Kill? It's a short read. Further, God owns the right to life. It is His to give, and manage as He sees fit in His own eyes. Our life comes from God. What God calls sin can never be a right. That would include murdering an innocent heart beat before it leaves the womb.
Didn't God command Abraham to murder his son? So that is an apparent contradiction, so either you must make the Bible supreme, or God supreme, or resolve the apparent contradiction. I really strive for honesty and consistency, and to me, trying to explain that away is dishonest and inconsistent. We can say "well life is God so he can take it away" but it seems contrary to His nature and contrary to His command to not murder. You might also say that "since life is Gods he is within His authority to command Abraham to take his sons life", and if that is true then any person who feels God telling them to murder someone would be justified. I agree with you that God wouldn't command that, I am just wondering how you might reconcile that, because again. I do not see how both can be true. If God wanted his son dead, but also commanded us not to murder, then I would think God would have taken his life and not asked Abraham to violate Gods law. I hope I am being clear and precise in my communication.
I think you were clear enough on this. The point you are making is that God told him to do it. Seems to contradict the murder law. In the case of Genesis chapter 22, what murder actually took place? Abraham was on his way to offer a sacrifice-atonement at a place where God had designated. In verse one, we read that God was testing Abraham's faith. Now stop and think for a minute. Do you think there was anything about Abe that God didn't already know? Who do you suppose would benefit from this test? God or Abraham? Abraham, faithful as he was, obeyed God right up to the point, then God stopped him before he killed his son. Then God explained to Abraham what this was about and then God provided a ram for the atonement. No human life had shed blood. Several things about this opens discussion. You,sir, can read this as "Thou shalt not kill" then "Here, go kill your son". I take away something different. I see this history recorded for my benefit. Abraham was rewarded for his faith, as we read farther down the chapter. Testing faith brings reward. Through this story, I see a window into the Messiah that was to come. There is consistency through the old and new testaments. God provided a ram. God told Abraham where to go and what to do. Where God sends, God provides. These TV preachers saying their ministry cannot continue without your support. If God is not floating their ministry, for all I care, let them go somewhere else and do something else. Then there is the very personal lesson from God to me. Just as Abraham was willing to give his son back to God, I too had to learn to surrender my 3 kids to God. They belong to God, as a parent I am only a stewart. I have been dealt so much guidance from God regarding my kids. My relationship with my kids mirrors my relationship with God. There is so much to look at. It has been a blessed experience. Every time one of my kids piss me off if makes me think of how disappointed God must be with some of the things I do, and often points out things that need to change in me. Perhaps it's only a matter of differing perspectives, but I see the contradiction argument as very shallow. Not calling you a shallow person, just a shallow perception as it goes through my filters.
I commend you for being such a solid person, especially to your children, you have my respect in that regard (for whatever it is worth). I think we would be good friends in person, no doubt, hopefully we remain so in this form. I dont think it is shallow, you said earlier that God would not command you to murder, yet we have a supposed example of Him doing just that right there in the Bible. So to me, since God is supreme, the Bible has to be wrong here. Maybe the being that commanded Abraham was NOT the loving Creator God but an imposter? How can you judge whether the 'voice in your head/heart" is God as opposed to a demonic spirit or something. You would probably tell the Muslims that when their God tells them to kill the infidels that isnt the nature of the true God.
John 10:24 - 27 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me 10:31 I and my Father are one. This comes down to what I was saying before about understanding spiritual things. When you share the same spirit, it is recognizable. There are times when I don't doubt God, but I don't trust myself. Is it really God or is it just wishful ideas of my own. I pray for guidance and see what lines up with scripture. Eventually I get confirmation. 1John 4::1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
How are the murders by God in the Bible explained? Exodus 12:29 - “And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.” This one really bugs me - On one hand, God doesn’t want people to hate and certainly doesn’t want anyone to murder, right? So how is this even vaguely OK? Say two gay guys are walking down the street and they end up getting killed by a couple of other guys. That wouldn’t be OK right? I hope you respond to this one. “ If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Killing folks that seek different religions? They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Or If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13 7-10) This one - geez!! Really?? “The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) @Ronhip - I’m guessing you don’t work on Sundays? Ever? Do you really think that anybody that works on Sunday should be put to death? I’m so dead serious here man… Literally killed - freaking murdered for working on a Sunday? Then there’s Ezekiel 9 - where God was mad at the folks in the city for being sinners and man oh man - You’d better have that mark on your forehead! “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7) Why couldn’t these folks repent and be spared? On and on??? As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. Slavery is A-Ok! Murder is fine - as long as God says it is. Other religions are not acceptable - 900 million Hindu, 376 million Buddhists, 1.3 Billion Muslims - there are so many different Bible verses that basically say to kill anyone that doesn’t follow God - should these millions and billions of people be put to death then? What is OK and what isn’t? If the Bible was created by God are these things OK? Working on Sunday, killing people from other religions, rape, slavery… I mean, the stuff is in the Christian Bible - right??? I really would like to see anybody answer any of these questions for me. J